Would a councillor on board have made it more interesting?

[exodus]

Wikipedia tells me that Nog got his commission as an ensign between Behind the Lines and Favour the Bold, effectively the 5th episode of season 6. Valliant was episode 21 of season 6.

That little ferengi was not only the highest ranking officer aboard who's rank had been ratified by Starfleet Command, he was the only officer aboard that ship who's rank had been ratified by Starfleet command.

Yeah and......????

Nog wasn't a leader, he was a follower.
That's what his whole speech about being part of a group and respecting command to Jake was all about. Even when the ship was expoding all around them and the First Officer and trouble taking control, did Nog step up? No, he didn't because regardless of rank it's not in his personality to lead.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But it will be.

In one possible future we saw during the 4th season episode "The Visitor" Nog was a Starship Captain with a Federation Starship of his own, but that was clearly a few decades down the line. Of course we're supposed to beleive that Crusher-Picard, LaForge and (god save us) Kim are some what destined for Captaincies too.

Oddly 2001, ironically, you're right at this point in his life, Nog had stars in his eyes.

The writers room most probably used "redsquad" because of Nog's failed history with that group. it was in his character to worship these kids as idols even if it was a different group than... This is like sports teams? The line ups change but the kids playing now are punks compared to when "you" were a contender in your prime watching real men play the sport and...

 

[Lynx]

Would Kes be able to council Neelix?

how much of the crew did she fraternize (there's a reasonable argument that she and Neelix never even did it, so we're just talking about tangled feelings here.) with that there would be need of a second councillor and then they divided up the crew like a draft pick for who they could council because they would never sleep with these potential patients?

She did actually do that in "Jetrel".

If we compare Kes and Troi, my opinion is that Kes had more edge than Troi. Kes had more guts in a way, was more level-headed and better to interact with people and never got involved in those strange relationships which Troi had now and then, like the one with that creepy negotiator in "The Prize" and the slimy Ambassador Alkar. So I think that Kes could have been a good counselor, as good as or even somewhat better than Troi.

Note that I don't dislike Troi, she's actually a favorite too. I find her a good character despite some wimpy actions here and there.

 

[exodus]

Would Kes be able to council Neelix?

how much of the crew did she fraternize (there's a reasonable argument that she and Neelix never even did it, so we're just talking about tangled feelings here.) with that there would be need of a second councillor and then they divided up the crew like a draft pick for who they could council because they would never sleep with these potential patients?

She did actually do that in "Jetrel".

If we compare Kes and Troi, my opinion is that Kes had more edge than Troi. Kes had more guts in a way, was more level-headed and better to interact with people and never got involved in those strange relationships which Troi had now and then, like the one with that creepy negotiator in "The Prize" and the slimy Ambassador Alkar. So I think that Kes could have been a good counselor, as good as or even somewhat better than Troi.

Note that I don't dislike Troi, she's actually a favorite too. I find her a good character despite some wimpy actions here and there.

I disagree that Kes had more guts than Troi .

For Troi to endure a sexual mind rape and still stand up to her attacker takes an extreme amount of guts. That fact that Troi was trust into a position of command without any help from any senior officer, shows Troi also had guts to step up and lead.

That real life experance alone makes Troi a stronger and better councelor. There's way more to being a councelor than just listening and giving advice. Seriously, how could Kes councel a victim of rape? What advice could she give in over coming it? Kes hasn't even had sex muchless completely grasp an emotionally overwhelming thing such as sexual rape.

 

[Voyagerian]

I would agree with Lynx that Kes would have made a good Counselor, and for, as said, her natural empathy, and compassion, which was considerable, and having a wisdom beyond her years. As they did with Deanna in giving her a promotion, and eps with meatier and crucial things to do, this could have expanded the character beyond her usual role. As to whether she and Neelix were ever intimate, there was far more to their relationship than merely sex, though, as Ethan Phillips once said in an interview, he believed that indeed their bond was more than platonic.In any case,this was not necessary to explain, one way or the other, to highlight their relationship.

 

[KimMH]

I agree Kes would have made a very good counselor. It would take any practitioner time and well, practice to be as secure as Troi but Kes was well on her way to that. I'm sure the Ocampan lifespan required an accelerated maturation emotionally as well as physically.

Strangely, I feel like Neelix made for a pretty decent counselor - he was like the chef on Archer's Enterprise, the one people felt safe enought to talk to about everything.

While Voyager's crew would definitely have benefitted from having a counselor the circumstances of course prevented that - which was the point of Voyager: People doing the best they could (pretty damn good!) Where they were, with what they had. Not so shabby.

 

[Voyagerian]

True on all points, there.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I always assumed that Kes as property of the kazon, and the only female that we saw planet size was passed around between the kazon at night like a collection plate in church.

That's not the greatest assumption in the world is it? That they wouldn't use a slave for sex when there's nothing in their moral code which we've seen that would stop them?

So really as far as rape is concerned, it's a question of quality over quantity. While Deanna might have been in awe of the terror from her experience, kes alternately after being raped thousands of times over the course of some months had really lost perspective because of the numbing tedious repetitiveness of her continuing "use" by the Kazon.

Then of course maybe they hadn't touched her like that at all?

Or obviously because her genitals might be in a very unusual place (betwween her shoulderblades maybe?), these Kazon just didn't have the heart to stumble into what she had going on blindfolded and clueless.

 

[Lynx]

^^
According to the book "Pathways" by Jeri Taylor, Kes was never raped by any Kazon. She was beaten and mistreated but not raped.

Since ths book is actually written by one of the creators of the series, I assume that it's as close to "canon" that it can be. Therefore all theories about Kes being "raped thousands of times over the course of some months" is just pure speculation-or pornographic wishful thinking?

As for genitals, despite the writers silly idea about how the Ocampa carry their children during their pregnancy, nothing has indicated that they are shaped different than other humanoids.

 

[KimMH]

Unfortunately GG makes a valid point, a group of people who have no trouble abusing a prisoner physically would have no qualms about abusing them sexually. ALthough a fistional person I do hope Taylor's vison is correct; I do like Kes mightily.

I wondered less about sex organ location than the effort of carrying a baby on your back. I carried mine in front and it gets to be a lot of work. You'd never think 8lb people would feel so heavy! (and what about those mutant 20 lb babies!?!?!?!?! true horror!)

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hmm?

Did we see baby Lynnis 2 seconds old?

How big was she?

Because considering Ocampan life expectancy and what fraction of that would be relegated to carrying their children that with how their minds work to cope/assume that their lives are not unfairly short, that if an Ocampan spent close to a year pregnant, it would be like as if a human female were spending an entire decade pregnant, but the fetus would be growing up at that same astonishing rate that after a few weeks to a month inside mommy, the child would be almost as tall as her mother and still mostly inside (An arm or a leg might make it's way out her bum to avoid the cramp?) the gal that the birth event would be more like the relative explosion of squeesing a pimple to eject it's cargo, that barely a year old herself, Lynnis was churning out little Kims WILLINGLY (She wasn't bribed, blackmaled or just doubledog dared. Amazing.) that I can't miagine the Ocampan gestation period baring on fro longer thana few weeks, and days after it's birth it probably could be confused for a human child of 2.

We saw kes as a foetus in before and after? Did that montage give us any more clues?

Harry Kim remembers being born.

Andrew Kim should have been able to remember being conceived or even earlier than that.

Which again would be a problem with Ocampan gestation, can the wee kiddies get too smart en utero, that no matter how unformed their bodies are there's a chance that might go insane or invent fire and philosophy inside the womb waiting to get out.

 

[Pegaritaville]

Unfortunately GG makes a valid point, a group of people who have no trouble abusing a prisoner physically would have no qualms about abusing them sexually. ALthough a fistional person I do hope Taylor's vison is correct; I do like Kes mightily.

Who's to say the Kazon even thought like that? For all we know, sexual abuse may have never even crossed their minds. Just because it happens in human cultures doesn't mean the same goes for a fictitional Delta Quandrant speices.

As far as having a counselor on VOY, I say nay. Voyager's original mission was supposed to a short one- why would they bother putting a shrink on board? I would have liked to have seen the situation addressed, but by the characters that were already on the show. Kes, Tuvok and Chakotay all could have contributed in that area.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

NO NO NO!!!

No more talking about feeeeeeeeeelings, PLEASE.

The only counseling I want to see is the Doctor's socialization lessons for 7. Now that was entertaining.

 

[kimc]

No more talking about feeeeeeeeeelings, PLEASE.

Nothing more than feeeeeeeeeelings...trying to forget myyyyyyyyy, feelings of loooooooove....

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Why would Voyager need a counselor, when they had the "Mother of all counselors" in Captain Janeway? Who did they send to talk with Harry Kim after he died and was resurrected, not to mention after he sent a message to his younger self after the tragedy of the slipstream experiment? Where did Kes go when her heart was confused over Neelix's apparent death, not to mention when Tuvix refused to relinguish his hold on Neelix & Tuvok's souls? She even confided in Janeway when she was going through puberty in the "Elogium", and when she was dating that alien captain in "Darkling". Who went to B'Elanna after she "gave birth" to her mechanical child, and then killed it? Where did B'Elanna go after the mind aliens played fast and loose with B'Elanna's fantasies of a liason with Chakotay? Who entered the lion's den when Tuvok went off his rocker in "Meld", not to mention who went into his psyche to diagnose his mental condition in "Flashback"? Can we forget who sat up with the Doctor when he was recovering from his own mental breakdown in "Latent Image"? Heck, she even counseled Chakotay in "The Fight". :-) Luckily, as her regular shipboard duties increased, Janeway learned to use her assistant counselors as the years went by, and chief among these were Tuvok and Chakotay who both had to take on the case of B'Elanna Torres, engineer extraordinaire.

 

[Klaitu]

Didn't Neelix serve the largely vestigial "counselor" function on Voyager? The other shows ended up making the counselor the weakest character, so I don't see how a counselor would have done much to improve the show.

 

[Brit]

Which again would be a problem with Ocampan gestation, can the wee kiddies get too smart en utero, that no matter how unformed their bodies are there's a chance that might go insane or invent fire and philosophy inside the womb waiting to get out.

Considering Ocampans were supposed to have some kind of telepathic connections and psychic talents, it could be that there was a telepathic bond between Mother and child and that the child emerged from the womb a thinking, speaking, reading cognitive individual. With that in mind it would make sense that the body matured rapidly to catch up with the mind.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

good point.

Like the Goul'd genetic memory except that they are hardwired fro cowlike docility instead of warmongering.

Would that make kes a mutant?

And would that make the ocampa a collective group mind on par with the Borg in some ways?

Here's the difference between neelix and a counsellor:

Neelix didn't write reports of the crews sanity to be unsealed later during court proceedings, and his presence was not requested as a judge for general crew evaluations or for the (bi?)annual promotion handouts like Troi did during Lower Decks or Tapestry.

If you're not mentally healthy and equipped, then you don't get a promotion.

Maybe no one ever got promoted because there was no councellor?

Maybe because Voyager was so small and not a city in space like Enterprise, you didn't get promoted to a new position aboard Voyager you got promoted off Voyager to a better job some where else in Starfleet?

The XO is busy and was probably glad for the rank freeze, but it was kind of the only thing "official" that the cousellor got to do, and if they did install one, then s/he would want to do all of their job.