Would a councillor on board have made it more interesting?

[Candlelight]

They didn't have one, and so they 'suffered' apparently.

But suffered off camera.

If they had a councillor with them, would they have had to have dealt with the failures and frailties of the crew? Or would that have made them less... invincible?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Depends on the rank surely even though Janeway has respect issues with almost everyone.

After Suder lashed out, you'd have thunk that someone have been assigned the position for the safe and well being of the rest of the crew?

I can imagine a councillor getting inbetween Janeway and Kullah to facilitate their handover of command in Basics or what impact a councillor would have had in the Tuvok debacle or someone trained to believe in the intricacies on the sentient mind would have made of the Doctor's play acting of being "alive" 99 persecent of the workday? Actually... A human councillor is a medical officer, and being alive would outrank the Doctor and become the Chief Medical Officer.

Not becoming Coucillor ie CMO would avoid any of the crew a shitstorm of paperwork.

Paris as the Doctor's nurse should have become Chief Medical Officer, kes as an actual Nurse should have been drafted and given a commission or enlisted rank because she had a useable skill they needed to tap a little more egarly than the Maquis who were issued Ensign Provisional rank badges because they could mop floors or kill on command, and then in the Before and After timeline what colossal weight of humility does this woman have to be a real Doctor and still bow down to a tool no more lifelike than a hypospray as her superior?

Isn't technically the morale officer a Councillor?

 

[kimc]

Depends on the rank surely even though Janeway has respect issues with almost everyone.

Really?

 

[Kai Winn]

i'm convinced troi has a couple of fans, but i doubt it has anything to do with her job. did ds9, voy, or ent in any episode mention the term counsellor (apart from troi's apperances in voy, and ezri's introduction to ds9)?

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Tuvok pretty much filled that role, didn't he?

I can't say that a counsellor would make things more interesting because, really, that's just a job description, not a character description. If the writers had wanted to show more of the characters' suffering they could have done that without needing a specially designated character for people to talk to.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Depends on the rank surely even though Janeway has respect issues with almost everyone.

Really?

Yes really.

That's completely what the episode Sacred Ground was about.

They took an Arrogant Starfleet officer and proved that she wasn't the centre of the universe. Unfortunately a dire attack of resetitis afflicted Kathryn's new found hubris before the beginning of the next weeks episode and she was back to being absolutely resolute with the course of her actions.

But they don't have enough time for too many shades of grey with just 44 minutes to dole out a bottlenecked story so it's completely understandable.

However my logic is this:

If Janeway is always right, then everyone else either agrees with her or they are wrong, and since every story is made in so that she is the hero who is right, it is functionally impossible with in the limits of Voyager's episodic story framework (Think "Last Action Hero") to respect villains who are opposed to her or disrespect heroes who agree with her... Actually that kind of falls into the realms of the Omega Directive when she had to be a villain when answering to a higher rule of law than the Prime Directive as her crew carry out their mission like a 12 century Viking rapegang.

She's not bad, she's just written that way (Jessica Rabbit?).

 

[Voyagerian]

The counselor role was filled at various times and through various characters, and their relationships, be it Kes asking for Kathryn's help in what to do when Tuvix came about, or Chakotay forcing Lanna to face the truth of why she was risking her safety in 'Extreme Risk', or with Neelix in his crisis of faith, for ex....And, you know...the constant psychoanalysis of Janeway by certain folks gets tedious after a while....She may not have been perfect, but let's see someone else keep a crew alive, and relatively intact for seven years,in a hostile, unexplored area of space, with no backup and support, and yet be 'perfect'...

 

[Guy Gardener]

There were at least two deepspace missions within 5 years of intercepting Voyager by Season 6 who had to have set off from the foot of the federation almost 3 decades earlier unless they were willfully flung forward by a wormhole or some other super technology.

Ransom lost half his crew in his first week.

What a loon.

By definition the 23rd Century'e Starfleet was nothgn but a series of 5 year missions, and fro ships less useful than Enterprise I can imagine that that 5 year mission would have been more singularily tasked.

We're to believe Archer survived on the Frontier for 10 years, meanwhile in the episode Twilight, that Enterprise lasted a century and a fifth after being marooned into history with few unnatural losses that a century on everythign was in working order.

The Valiant staffed by children lasted for a year behind Dominion lines hobbling alone at warp two which in itself I suppose is a qualified failure.

Excelsior spent a year in the beta Quadrant charting gaseous Anomalies.

The Olympia was out of touch with the Federation for ten years charting deep space as mentioned in DS9's The Sound of her Voice before it crashed into a rock.

Those aliens from The Disease were taking a trip that would take them centuries. Of course civil unrest bollocks blew up that society.

Teran Dinosaurs made the trip out from earth 65 million years ealier without much trouble and built an empire sop powerful that it ignores the Borg.

Pitiful Talaxian ships made it as far as Voyager could in seven years, but we don't know how long it took them but they probably used a wormhole before they found that rock to crawl into.

Those plaguey Klingon Buggers had been wandering around in circles for centuries looking for prophecy.

And so on.

 

[You_Guyz]

As I said in the other thread, they shoulda stuck Kes in the hydroponics bay and have her dole out counselling with leola root tea.
I don't think anyone would have confided in Neelix.
Mind you, what are we really even talking about? Besides the regulars, there was literally no one else on the crew to even have emotions.

 

[Kai Winn]

The Valiant staffed by children lasted for a year behind Dominion lines hobbling alone at warp two which in itself I suppose is a qualified failure.

ever wondered how nog managed to be on two places at the same time? while nog was alledgedly aboard the valiant for a year, he appeared more than ten times in other episodes. actually, in season 6 more often than in any other.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No sir.

The Valliant rescued Jake and Nog on a Shuttle mission. it was Nog's hands on practical skills from the real world and completed education (At least I think that he still wasn't a cadet?) that had the lad fix the ships engines after about 5 minutes of tinkering... No, I'm pretty sure he was an ensign which is why I was screaming at the TV that Nog should stop following the orders of these children with their lord of the frakking flies imaginary commissions! Honestly, Nog should have assumed Command, hell even Jake tried to assume command a little by telling them all NOT to attack the Dominions Super Warship which got him locked up... If O'Brien or Worf (Worf wouldn't even follow Picard reduced to 14 years old in appearance when Jean-Luc's mind and character was still exactly the same.) had found them, they would have laughed at their ranks even if it was O'Brien who backed Councillor Troi for command of the Enterprise in TNG The Disaster, just like anyone else in the AQ would laugh their asses off at Marquis provisional Rank badges as Voyagers as yet unconvicted terrorist crewmen attempted to sign up for positions on other ships in Starfleet and keep the ranks they "earned" on Voyager.

"Janeway's pet terrorists".

Oi vey.

 

[kimc]

They took an Arrogant Starfleet officer and proved that she wasn't the centre of the universe.

A Starfleet captain who is a resolute hero!? How awful! It's a good thing the other Trek captains were such indecisive losers.

Needless to say I find your logic to be faulty however this thread is about counselors. Feel free to take it up in a new thread though.

 

[Lynx]

I'm not sure if a counselor on board would have made the series more interesting but I do think that they should have made Kes the counselor in season 3 or 4.

She was very wise, good to listen to people, to care and also found ways to solve problems by moving around them and attacking them from another angle.

look at that scene in "Jetrel" when Neelix calls himself a coward for deserting from the army. Kes asks him why he deserted. Neelix answers that hed didn't want to fight in a war which was unjustified. Kes then asks him what punishment it was for deserting. Neelix answers that the punishment to desertion in wartime was death. Kes then asks him if risking his life for deserting from a war which he didn't want to fight in was an act of cowardice.

Or the scene in "Resolutions" where Kes persuades Tuvok to go back after Janeway and Chakotay. When Kim tried the same thing, he almost got court-martialed.

Kes would have been a very good counselor.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hmm?

But would this hypothetical councillor get a bridge position like Deanna or be locked away in a cupboard under the stairs like the all the councillors on DS9 for the first six years, before Ezri turned up and demanded some spotlight?

 

[exodus]

Isn't that what Neelix was?

Whenever anybody had the woes, he'd throw a party or offer some new perspective to take their mind off the subject.

That was the irony.

The crew of Voyager may be lost but they were secure in the fact that their loved ones were back in the Alpha Q. alive and waiting for them. No matter what Neelix does, he can never bring back his mother/father or siblings. If anybody on that ship could teach them how to deal with being without but still hope for a better tomorrow, it was him.

Neelix was an exercise in how not to take what you have for granted.



BTW, how the hell could Nog take command of the Valiant? He wasn't doing well enough in school to earn the credits to join Red Squad. That's why in "Paradise Lost" he was begging Sisko to give him a recommendation to get in and he only wanted to be part of Red Squad just for the credibility of status.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Wikipedia tells me that Nog got his commission as an ensign between Behind the Lines and Favour the Bold, effectively the 5th episode of season 6. Valliant was episode 21 of season 6.

That little ferengi was not only the highest ranking officer aboard who's rank had been ratified by Starfleet Command, he was the only officer aboard that ship who's rank had been ratified by Starfleet command.

Who has the higher rank?

An "ables man" (i think that's as low as you can go with enlisted ranks?)or an officer cadet?

 

[Triskelion]

To his credit he was smart enough not to try. Those little lords of the flies would have keelhauled him.

Maybe if he had more confidence or command presence he could have pulled it off. Captain pizza face had more command gravitas than Nog.

 

[mattyhugh]

Hmm?

But would this hypothetical councillor get a bridge position like Deanna or be locked away in a cupboard under the stairs like the all the councillors on DS9 for the first six years, before Ezri turned up and demanded some spotlight?

Wasn't one named dropped in 'Hard Time'?

 

[Guy Gardener]

If a councillor treats in a closet under the stairs and no camera is there to film it... Do they really treat?

But yes.

Counsellor Telnorri

Although I think I remember Miles going on about how much he hates councillors while drunk with Julian with his friend hat on in another episode.

Julian should have been struck off the register for sleeping with his patient Serena.

Hmm?

Did that mean that it was unethical and a fireable offence for Deanna to pursue a relationship with any of her patients which was extensively the entire srew of the Starship she lived in including William T Riker?

Does this job come with a vow of chastity?

No wonder they didn't put councillors on the little ships.

Would Kes be able to council Neelix?

how much of the crew did she fraternize (there's a reasonable argument that she and Neelix never even did it, so we're just talking about tangled feelings here.) with that there would be need of a second councillor and then they divided up the crew like a draft pick for who they could council because they would never sleep with these potential patients?

Isn't it nice when you know they think you're ugly?

...

So any other Ensign would have pulled rank but Nog was too green? he was so green he stood up to Martok, tried to throw the bugger in a holding cell for noise pollution... No one was greener than Harry Kim and he would have definitely assumed command of the Valiant if that situation had occurred in his home turf... Although when he tried to talk dow to those Borg kids like they were kids during their first encounter they pwned him completely because he's lousey at threat assessment. Short deadly Borg is still deadly borg.

Besides? Are we really sure that Watters got that field promotion in the first place and he just didn't put words into a deadman's face to make his "mutiny" go down easier?

From listening to Watters and his XO talking about emotional issues on the Valiant, methinks that he did not promote anyone to the position of ships counsellor from the cadet core, but then Bev was still in starfleet medical at the age of 27 when she met Jack.

 

[Triskelion]

A counselor's relationship with a client or patient should indeed be limited to that office hour only. No outside interaction, no socialization, no fraternizing, and as for sex, forget about it!

However - prior to Troi's being assigned to the Enterprise, she and Will had already established a personal relationship - which would then preclude her from ethically taking a role as his counselor. The only other issue I can think of would be Worf, but counseling was never his thing.

On a ship in deep space, that boundary is necessarily more fluid. You cannot ask a counselor to live in the vacuum. So you would probably give them clear guidelines about relationships; I recall Enterprise D actually having a number of qualified therapists on board. If a client were your friend, you would refer them to another therapist and vice versa. DS9 could probably lay their hands on one if needed. Voyager, you'd have to either get the Doc or Hologram Sigmund Freud (whose methods are really outdated for even this era let alone in 2 centuries). Kes would have done well to focus on psychology (or also psychiatry if the Doc schooled her in medicine). Others have mentioned it and I'd agree, I'd love to have seen her helping a more bewildered and lost Seven of Nine get in touch with herself.

A ship's counselor is probably deterred from establishing too-deep a therapy relationship. The clients are for the most part, high-functioning individuals, rather than stalking basket cases who have a susceptibility to a counselor who abuses her authority and influence over people. I don't really see the problem coming up much.

Janeway could have used a counselor in The Void. Chakotay in Nemesis (is that the right name?). Tom and B'Elanna for couples therapy (she won't let me have the remote!), Naomi Wildman of course, the Borg brats, and maybe even the Doctor. The Doctor did try his hand at psychoanalysis, and he was woefully inadequate to the task.