Worf not getting a command - is this fair?

[Praxius]

thats a tough one, i admit. alright put it this way, command officers that are involved shouldn't be allowed to serve together. well, i suppose this could be considered discrimination and its hard to live up to but i still have strong objections about this. when it comes to the safety of the crew and the ship nothing should interfere with the commanding officers or command crews decision.
as i stated before, conflict of interest is a dangerous thing... but then again i'm not really objective in this matter. military family and all that. so we probably wont see eye to eye on this one.

Well my father and brother served with the Nova Scotia Highlanders, 1st Battalion (North), which is a CF Reserve Militia, while my cousin, as mentioned before, is assigned to the Canadian Forces itself and served in Afghanistan at the Kandahar Base.... and I almost got into the Highlanders as well, but some YMCA yuppie doing the endurance tests gave me crap over my pushups apparently not being done right and didn't let me in.... even though by the end of the testing I did over double the amount of pushups required. Even my father was there and bitched the guy out, wondering wtf was wrong with him.

I fully understand the conflict of interest issue, and I agree with today's standards as they stand.... but when looking at these standards in the Star Trek environment, they seem to have a different take on the subject.... which I can kind of agree with as well, being a different era in humanity then what we live today.

there is always two sides of a coin as they say. with family aboard everyone would work harder but its the thing to put family ahead of duty is what scares the brass.

and as you said Kira is behind this. she should have gotten at least a formal reprimand for endangering the mission like that.

Agreed.

now, worf did get away quite easily in my eyes but if i was in his CO's position i wouldnt stop him from receiving a command. yes, i would think twice about it and i would make it harder for him but in my eyes, ultimately the blame lies with Kira. the regulations are in place in order to prevent people from having to do these kind of decisions. the thing is no rational person would sacrifice his wife for a mission and no one should be put in a position like that.

Also agree... one would think with Kira's resistance experience with working closely with people you care for, trust, and even in a relationship with or family (Her father) ..... and being the first officer of DS9, she would have known better.

As you said before, these procedures of not sending two people in a relationship on a mission alone together that poses risks are there for a good reason.... as Worf proved by his actions. He and Dax were sent where they were ordered and as hard as Worf tried to continue the mission (He did try) his personal feelings over-ruled.

with that said, with the bashing of worf. i would hade done the same if i was in worf's shoes. and i would have gladly even taken a dishonorable discharge than live with the decision to have sacrificed my wife.

Agreed.

 

[ares93]

thats a tough one, i admit. alright put it this way, command officers that are involved shouldn't be allowed to serve together. well, i suppose this could be considered discrimination and its hard to live up to but i still have strong objections about this. when it comes to the safety of the crew and the ship nothing should interfere with the commanding officers or command crews decision.
as i stated before, conflict of interest is a dangerous thing... but then again i'm not really objective in this matter. military family and all that. so we probably wont see eye to eye on this one.

Well my father and brother served with the Nova Scotia Highlanders, 1st Battalion (North), which is a CF Reserve Militia, while my cousin, as mentioned before, is assigned to the Canadian Forces itself and served in Afghanistan at the Kandahar Base.... and I almost got into the Highlanders as well, but some YMCA yuppie doing the endurance tests gave me crap over my pushups apparently not being done right and didn't let me in.... even though by the end of the testing I did over double the amount of pushups required. Even my father was there and bitched the guy out, wondering wtf was wrong with him.

I fully understand the conflict of interest issue, and I agree with today's standards as they stand.... but when looking at these standards in the Star Trek environment, they seem to have a different take on the subject.... which I can kind of agree with as well, being a different era in humanity then what we live today.

there is always two sides of a coin as they say. with family aboard everyone would work harder but its the thing to put family ahead of duty is what scares the brass.

and as you said Kira is behind this. she should have gotten at least a formal reprimand for endangering the mission like that.

Agreed.

now, worf did get away quite easily in my eyes but if i was in his CO's position i wouldnt stop him from receiving a command. yes, i would think twice about it and i would make it harder for him but in my eyes, ultimately the blame lies with Kira. the regulations are in place in order to prevent people from having to do these kind of decisions. the thing is no rational person would sacrifice his wife for a mission and no one should be put in a position like that.

Also agree... one would think with Kira's resistance experience with working closely with people you care for, trust, and even in a relationship with or family (Her father) ..... and being the first officer of DS9, she would have known better.

As you said before, these procedures of not sending two people in a relationship on a mission alone together that poses risks are there for a good reason.... as Worf proved by his actions. He and Dax were sent where they were ordered and as hard as Worf tried to continue the mission (He did try) his personal feelings over-ruled.

with that said, with the bashing of worf. i would hade done the same if i was in worf's shoes. and i would have gladly even taken a dishonorable discharge than live with the decision to have sacrificed my wife.

Agreed.

We do come eye to eye then. and you do have a valid point that they live in a completely different era and their regulation and customs are different. i can agree with that as well. a while back women werent even allowed in the military. things change, i guess.

just a question. you never considered trying again? when such a dickhead if you forgive the phrasing screws with you... i wouldnt have given up.

i've already gotten my letter from the hungarian military to join. still waiting for one from the swedish army... you know that "Lend uncle sam a hand, enlist today" thingy. dunno which i will enlist in yet though... but i will.

 

[Praxius]

......... just a question. you never considered trying again? when such a dickhead if you forgive the phrasing screws with you... i wouldnt have given up.

Well it did go further then what I explained:

two years before I tried to join up, my brother joined the Militia, and at that time, so long as you past the physical/health check and a few minor tests, you got in... they trained you and got you more fit when you got in.

A few months before I decided to join up, they changed the rules around and added that you also had to be able to run 2km under 20 minutes, do something like 50 situps (situps always were a breeze for me) and 20 pushups.

I past the Physical/Health check, past all the written tests, and I guess I aced the vehicle engine test, even though I had zero experience with engines or their parts.

When I got to the Fitness testing, they brought this idiot from the YMCA (just some random fitness buff, as far as I know, he wasn't actually in the military) to conduct the tests.

The first time around I passed everything except the pushups.... he claimed my hands were in the wrong position, told me to stop and do them again. I'd get halfway through and he'd pull the same stunt. He did this several times and eventually said "Alright, get up, forget it, you can't do them."

Even though I did about 45 of the damn things after him restarting me over and over.

He told me I could try the test again in two weeks, but I'd have to travel to Halifax to his YMCA, and pay them $30 to take the test again (The first test was free)

So my father.... who was in the militia, trained other soldiers on the firearms, afterwards became a school teacher specializing in Gym, Math and Science.... decided to help me more to ensure I'd get in. After two weeks, we drove down to Halifax to take the test.

I went into the room, my father stayed out in the waiting area, but could watch through the window. I went through the tests, passed them all, and then once again he screwed me around with the pushups, making me do the exact same thing again and then told me to stop and that I didn't pass.

My father got into an argument, asked him if he was ever in the military (the guy looked like a friggin toothpick who was probably bitter about never being able to hack it in the military and wanted to dash some dreams or something)... my dad told him he's a gym teacher and was in the militia and said I did the pushups just damn fine and in fact did more then was required.

The guy just told him I didn't and now I owed them $30. I could take the test again, but once again, I'd have to drive the hour and a half back to the city and pay him $30 more to take it again.

So we paid and walked out, and because of the argument they had, we got to the car 5 minutes late for the parking metre and my dad also got a $30 parking ticket.

At that point I said "ok... it's not meant to be, screw it." I wasn't going to continually drag my father around the province and blow his money on this crap.

Of course a few years later when Canada went to Afghanistan, the military found they were having a hard time getting recruits (I wonder why) so they dropped the fitness thing off the requirements.... jerks.

Oh well.... I continued on with my art/drawing, went to college and am now into graphic design, web design, photo editing, video editing, sign building, vehicle graphics, animation, etc. etc. etc....

For the record, our Militia forces are tied into our Canadian Forces, which means they get the exact same training, the exact same equipment and when we go off to war, the militia goes with the Canadian forces... the difference is that the militia has a bit more flexibility and you can stay in your community easier, rather then be transferred or shipped off to some other area of the country/base.

i've already gotten my letter from the hungarian military to join. still waiting for one from the swedish army... you know that "Lend uncle sam a hand, enlist today" thingy. dunno which i will enlist in yet though... but i will.

Certainly the best of luck to you..... hopefully you don't get some idiot like I did doing your tests.

 

[ares93]

......... just a question. you never considered trying again? when such a dickhead if you forgive the phrasing screws with you... i wouldnt have given up.

Well it did go further then what I explained:

two years before I tried to join up, my brother joined the Militia, and at that time, so long as you past the physical/health check and a few minor tests, you got in... they trained you and got you more fit when you got in.

A few months before I decided to join up, they changed the rules around and added that you also had to be able to run 2km under 20 minutes, do something like 50 situps (situps always were a breeze for me) and 20 pushups.

I past the Physical/Health check, past all the written tests, and I guess I aced the vehicle engine test, even though I had zero experience with engines or their parts.

When I got to the Fitness testing, they brought this idiot from the YMCA (just some random fitness buff, as far as I know, he wasn't actually in the military) to conduct the tests.

The first time around I passed everything except the pushups.... he claimed my hands were in the wrong position, told me to stop and do them again. I'd get halfway through and he'd pull the same stunt. He did this several times and eventually said "Alright, get up, forget it, you can't do them."

Even though I did about 45 of the damn things after him restarting me over and over.

He told me I could try the test again in two weeks, but I'd have to travel to Halifax to his YMCA, and pay them $30 to take the test again (The first test was free)

So my father.... who was in the militia, trained other soldiers on the firearms, afterwards became a school teacher specializing in Gym, Math and Science.... decided to help me more to ensure I'd get in. After two weeks, we drove down to Halifax to take the test.

I went into the room, my father stayed out in the waiting area, but could watch through the window. I went through the tests, passed them all, and then once again he screwed me around with the pushups, making me do the exact same thing again and then told me to stop and that I didn't pass.

My father got into an argument, asked him if he was ever in the military (the guy looked like a friggin toothpick who was probably bitter about never being able to hack it in the military and wanted to dash some dreams or something)... my dad told him he's a gym teacher and was in the militia and said I did the pushups just damn fine and in fact did more then was required.

The guy just told him I didn't and now I owed them $30. I could take the test again, but once again, I'd have to drive the hour and a half back to the city and pay him $30 more to take it again.

So we paid and walked out, and because of the argument they had, we got to the car 5 minutes late for the parking metre and my dad also got a $30 parking ticket.

At that point I said "ok... it's not meant to be, screw it." I wasn't going to continually drag my father around the province and blow his money on this crap.

Of course a few years later when Canada went to Afghanistan, the military found they were having a hard time getting recruits (I wonder why) so they dropped the fitness thing off the requirements.... jerks.

Oh well.... I continued on with my art/drawing, went to college and am now into graphic design, web design, photo editing, video editing, sign building, vehicle graphics, animation, etc. etc. etc....

For the record, our Militia forces are tied into our Canadian Forces, which means they get the exact same training, the exact same equipment and when we go off to war, the militia goes with the Canadian forces... the difference is that the militia has a bit more flexibility and you can stay in your community easier, rather then be transferred or shipped off to some other area of the country/base.

i've already gotten my letter from the hungarian military to join. still waiting for one from the swedish army... you know that "Lend uncle sam a hand, enlist today" thingy. dunno which i will enlist in yet though... but i will.

Certainly the best of luck to you..... hopefully you don't get some idiot like I did doing your tests.

thanks, i seriously hope so. and that my fellow soldiers will have more common sense than my cousin's when he enlisted. he spent a month in a military prison because he and his friend was supposed to guard the armory and the damn SOB showed up drunk... and yes, the hungarian army is that strict.

holy crap, that's a streak of bad luck. still, collage and graphic design is great. i'm doing IT and networking myself.

 

[T'Girl]

in fact they shouldnt even be allowed to merry in the first place.

You can't be married to someone who reports directly to you (evaluations, etc.). If you wanted to marry, one of you would have to be moved. Most armed services want you to marry, it increases the likelihood of your re-enlisting.

With having male and female personnel in the armed forces, relationships are bound to occur from time to time and the military as far as I'm aware, has no right to dictate who can marry who.... that is protected by charter of rights.

In the US Air Force you send a request to your squadron commander, this is usual rubber stamped and sent right back. Basically this informs the service of your intent. But there are exceptions, when my family was living in Japan this young female airman requested to get married for the third time, third time in eleven months, her squadron commander sent back request denied. Instead the commander sent her to counciling. Under regulations (which you agree to prior to entry) the service does have the legal right to say no.

 

[ares93]

in fact they shouldnt even be allowed to merry in the first place.

You can't be married to someone who reports directly to you (evaluations, etc.). If you wanted to marry, one of you would have to be moved. Most armed services want you to marry, it increases the likelihood of your re-enlisting.

With having male and female personnel in the armed forces, relationships are bound to occur from time to time and the military as far as I'm aware, has no right to dictate who can marry who.... that is protected by charter of rights.

In the US Air Force you send a request to your squadron commander, this is usual rubber stamped and sent right back. Basically this informs the service of your intent. But there are exceptions, when my family was living in Japan this young female airman requested to get married for the third time, third time in eleven months, her squadron commander sent back request denied. Instead the commander sent her to counciling. Under regulations (which you agree to prior to entry) the service does have the legal right to say no.

well thats pretty much the same conclusion we came to a few posts later.

now i really don't want to sound like a jerk but everyone knows that the brass in the us military aren't exactly the sharpest blades in the set. besides neither of us have experience with us military regulations as we stated before. maybe you're right, i have no idea. but i'll take your work for it.

 

[Nightdiamond]

There were quite a few times when other officers deliberately disobeyed orders and were still promoted or never reprimanded.

Sisko left DS9 and took the Defiant into the Gamma Quadrant to rescue Odo and Garak even though he was ordered to STAY THERE. A few months later he got promoted.

Riker once attempted to rescue a woman from a gender neutral society from being "cured" because they were beginning to have a relationship (against the prime directive?)

He was not reprimanded as far as I know.

Sisko's and Riker's actions did not impact the federation negatively.

In 'change of heart' it is directly stated that the information Worf failed to retrieve would have saved MILLIONS of federation lives - MILLIONS who will now die.
Given the magnitude of Worf's failure, his punishment was a joke.
Expulsion from starfleet is the least severe punishment anyone who failed on that level can expect. Most likely prison for dereliction of duty, too.

It really hard to argue with that. To be honest, would we want a captain in a military situation who is capable of sacrificing millions of lives in the name of self interest?

Still (since I like debates) consider Sisko's situation- This was a high alert situation.

The Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar scheme may had unleashed a possible wild attack against the Federation by the Jem Hadar.

An Admiral ordered Sisko to stay there and defend DS9 and Bajor and as result, the Federation and Alpha Quadrant.

He was even so suspicious, he had Eddington ready to sabotage the Defiant in case he did.

The reasoning? Odo and Garak were just two people, even though Sisko and the crew were close to him. Hundreds, then millions of lives wee at stake when you count Bajor.

Odo even put himself on the line (cool Odo!) to free them once.

Sisko chooses to leave DS9 and risk the Defiant to save Them, and he admitted that the crew might face a court martial when they got back.

The admiral even said the next time he did that he might be court martial ed - or promoted.

 

[ares93]

It really hard to argue with that. To be honest, would we want a captain in a military situation who is capable of sacrificing millions of lives in the name of self interest?

most certainly not. that is why regulations are in place. officers aren't supposed to get in situations like worf did. thats why the blame lies with kira. she was never supposed to have ordered those two on a mission together. no one would sacrifice his wife for a mission, no matter whats at stake. that why regulation should have prohibited them to go on that mission together. something kira apparently didnt care about.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

It really hard to argue with that. To be honest, would we want a captain in a military situation who is capable of sacrificing millions of lives in the name of self interest?

most certainly not. that is why regulations are in place. officers aren't supposed to get in situations like worf did. thats why the blame lies with kira. she was never supposed to have ordered those two on a mission together. no one would sacrifice his wife for a mission, no matter whats at stake. that why regulation should have prohibited them to go on that mission together. something kira apparently didnt care about.

Kira is to blame for placing Worf in that situation, yes.

But Worf is the one who made the decision to sacrifice millions of lives for his wife.
He knew how many he condemned with his actions; the moment he acted, he should also have known and be prepared for the consequences of his deed.
And these consequences should be far, far harsher than merely 'not getting a command'.

In today's military, an officer whose deeds lead to the death of MILLIONS of his people will be tried for treason and executed/imprisoned for life (whatever the harshest punishment in his country is). Whatever reasons he had for his deed, whatever atenuating circumstances he invokes won't matter - he IS RESPONSIBLE for the death of MILLIONS! That's an enormos number; can you even imagine the loss we're talking about? Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed "only" ~350000 people - light casualties, by comparison!

If the Federation had the death penalty for treason, Worf should have expected to be sentenced to death; he should have known that he is included in the MILLIONS who died for his wife.

 

[ares93]

It really hard to argue with that. To be honest, would we want a captain in a military situation who is capable of sacrificing millions of lives in the name of self interest?

most certainly not. that is why regulations are in place. officers aren't supposed to get in situations like worf did. thats why the blame lies with kira. she was never supposed to have ordered those two on a mission together. no one would sacrifice his wife for a mission, no matter whats at stake. that why regulation should have prohibited them to go on that mission together. something kira apparently didnt care about.

Kira is to blame for placing Worf in that situation, yes.

But Worf is the one who made the decision to sacrifice millions of lives for his wife.
He knew how many he condemned with his actions; the moment he acted, he should also have known and be prepared for the consequences of his deed.
And these consequences should be far, far harsher than merely 'not getting a command'.

In today's military, an officer whose deeds lead to the death of MILLIONS of his people will be tried for treason and executed/imprisoned for life (whatever the harshest punishment in his country is). Whatever reasons he had for his deed, whatever atenuating circumstances he invokes won't matter - he IS RESPONSIBLE for the death of MILLIONS! That's an enormos number; can you even imagine the loss we're talking about? Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed "only" ~350000 people - light casualties, by comparison!

If the Federation had the death penalty for treason, Worf should have expected to be sentenced to death; he should have known that he is included in the MILLIONS who died for his wife.

yes, i certainly see your point and i partially agree. however you must see that they live in another era with different customs and that any rational person would have made the same choice that worf did.

 

[Praxius]

.... But Worf is the one who made the decision to sacrifice millions of lives for his wife.
He knew how many he condemned with his actions; the moment he acted, he should also have known and be prepared for the consequences of his deed.

And these consequences should be far, far harsher than merely 'not getting a command'......

Let's try and not jump the gun here shall we. Nobody knows if millions of lives were lost because of his actions... because he made the decision he did, any other outcomes are unknown.

He could have saved that guy and brought him back to Starfleet, but that guy could have also given useless information and just said what he said in order to save his own arse..... since his information (either valuable or useless) died with him, nobody will ever know what really might or might not have happened..... thus to just pin "Millions of Lives Lost" at Worf's feet is pretty short sighted and based on speculation.

There is also no assurance that his information would have captured all the founders either, let alone half or even most of them. Telling the location of the founders and how many doesn't really help when founders can change their locations, as well as shape and identity.

He claimed to know the location of all the founders in Starfleet and how many there were..... to me, that just sounds like an informant holding information on other informants. Founders usually gathered information and sometimes committed sabotage, but they normally didn't go out and directly attack and or kill people.... they left that up to the rest of their Dominion.

Also, we don't even know if the information the informant was going to provide would be accurate, or if he was given completely false information. He already claimed he was no longer safe and needed to get out before they got him and killed him.... so to me it already sounded like they already knew he was an informant, thus chances are, his information could have been false (unbeknown to the informant.)

Therefore, it is baseless to just pin millions of deaths on Worf because of his actions.

If that was truly the case, then one could also blame the informant for not contacting them sooner when it was more safe to get him out.

The decision Worf made was a decision nobody else could refuse given the same situation.... it's.... er.... "Human" nature.... it was his nature to be more loyal to his wife then to anyone else. That's the whole point of marriage in the first place.... even though he tried to ignore this, his own nature, his own attachment to his wife stopped him in his tracks and had little choice in what occurred.... as even Sisko admitted he would have done the same thing.

In fact just about everybody in this thread also said they'd do the exact same thing.

Because of this, I personally blame Kira for putting him in a situation that setup everything that unfolded.... and even if it was Worf who was wounded and Dax had to complete the mission, I bet dimes to doughnuts that she would have done the exact same thing Worf did for her.

It's Physics almost.... If A does B, then B results in C.

If you are on a mission with your spouse and your spouse is seriously injured, you will attend to the safety of your spouse.

It's also like someone telling you to abandon your child or to let your child die..... 99.8% of everybody put in that situation wouldn't be able to do it.

 

[ares93]

.... But Worf is the one who made the decision to sacrifice millions of lives for his wife.
He knew how many he condemned with his actions; the moment he acted, he should also have known and be prepared for the consequences of his deed.

And these consequences should be far, far harsher than merely 'not getting a command'......

Let's try and not jump the gun here shall we. Nobody knows if millions of lives were lost because of his actions... because he made the decision he did, any other outcomes are unknown.

He could have saved that guy and brought him back to Starfleet, but that guy could have also given useless information and just said what he said in order to save his own arse..... since his information (either valuable or useless) died with him, nobody will ever know what really might or might not have happened..... thus to just pin "Millions of Lives Lost" at Worf's feet is pretty short sighted and based on speculation.

There is also no assurance that his information would have captured all the founders either, let alone half or even most of them. Telling the location of the founders and how many doesn't really help when founders can change their locations, as well as shape and identity.

He claimed to know the location of all the founders in Starfleet and how many there were..... to me, that just sounds like an informant holding information on other informants. Founders usually gathered information and sometimes committed sabotage, but they normally didn't go out and directly attack and or kill people.... they left that up to the rest of their Dominion.

Also, we don't even know if the information the informant was going to provide would be accurate, or if he was given completely false information. He already claimed he was no longer safe and needed to get out before they got him and killed him.... so to me it already sounded like they already knew he was an informant, thus chances are, his information could have been false (unbeknown to the informant.)

Therefore, it is baseless to just pin millions of deaths on Worf because of his actions.

If that was truly the case, then one could also blame the informant for not contacting them sooner when it was more safe to get him out.

The decision Worf made was a decision nobody else could refuse given the same situation.... it's.... er.... "Human" nature.... it was his nature to be more loyal to his wife then to anyone else. That's the whole point of marriage in the first place.... even though he tried to ignore this, his own nature, his own attachment to his wife stopped him in his tracks and had little choice in what occurred.... as even Sisko admitted he would have done the same thing.

In fact just about everybody in this thread also said they'd do the exact same thing.

Because of this, I personally blame Kira for putting him in a situation that setup everything that unfolded.... and even if it was Worf who was wounded and Dax had to complete the mission, I bet dimes to doughnuts that she would have done the exact same thing Worf did for her.

It's Physics almost.... If A does B, then B results in C.

If you are on a mission with your spouse and your spouse is seriously injured, you will attend to the safety of your spouse.

It's also like someone telling you to abandon your child or to let your child die..... 99.8% of everybody put in that situation wouldn't be able to do it.

couldn't have said it better myself, my friend.

 

[jadzia_dax2369]

It is fair. Worf knew the consequences of his actions, and he did it anyway...just as any normal person would.

Loved one > job.

i agree with you, worf knew the risks when he and jadzia were there with the jem'adar

 

[Nightdiamond]

If you know you've got millions of lives in your hands, and still throw it away maybe you can't be fit for a captain.

But this can be put both ways-- how can you delibitely leave an injured person someone close to you- to die alone in a jungle - your wife, close friend, even child- just to get intelligence?

The reasoning is, if you're capable of doing that, you might be described as very cold or even disconnected psychologically.

If you put that person in the captain's chair and he or she has to decide between saving an alien planet of millions of people he or she never met or...you get the picture..

Remember that TOS and TNG had a LOT of problems with waywards, disconnected captains.

It's still hard to argue with it on paper , but the actual idea sucks...

 

[ares93]

If you know you've got millions of lives in your hands, and still throw it away maybe you can't be fit for a captain.

But this can be put both ways-- how can you delibitely leave an injured person someone close to you- to die alone in a jungle - your wife, close friend, even child- just to get intelligence?

The reasoning is, if you're capable of doing that, you might be described as very cold or even disconnected psychologically.

If you put that person in the captain's chair and he or she has to decide between saving an alien planet of millions of people he or she never met or...you get the picture..

Remember that TOS and TNG had a LOT of problems with waywards, disconnected captains.

It's still hard to argue with it on paper , but the actual idea sucks...

that exactly why kira never should have sent them in that mission together. its a catch 22. you dont want a captain who sacrifices millions of lives for a loved one and you dont want a captain who is cold enough to sacrifice his wife. either way he's in trouble. not to mention having to live with his actions.

besides it was never stated that his actions killed millions of people. the information the informant had could have saved millions of lives. not the other way around.

 

[DevilEyes]

I think this ep was a character assassination of Worf and his culture. Klingons are all about dying with honor and fulfilling their duty at all costs...yet now all of a sudden they're not? I didn't buy Worf's actions at all. The writers dropped the ball, imo.

Yes, because the Klingons, as is usually the case with members of sentient species, are all the same - robots who are constantly fulfilling the demands of their culture. It's not like we've ever seen a Klingon who ever put personal feelings or personal desires above "honor". Every Klingon we met was always duty-bound and honorable. It's not like we've ever seen a Klingon on TNG or DS9 using "honor" as just a catchphrase while they were actually acting out of personal ambition, jealousy, revenge or greed...

What have you been watching?!

 

[ProtoAvatar]

besides it was never stated that his actions killed millions of people. the information the informant had could have saved millions of lives. not the other way around.

As any future event, it's not certain that Lazarus' information could have saved MILLIONS.

But it's very probable - the episode makes it clear:
Lazarus is the real deal - as shown; information about the founder's plans would save millions of Federaion citizens - directly stated.

The loss of millions of lives is not some unlikely event that could result from Worf's actions; it's almost a certainty.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The irony is that we never see anymore founders anyway, we only see the female founder.

I always got the impression that she was the only there from the way the episodes played out.

DevilEyes wrote:

Yes, because the Klingons, as is usually the case with members of sentient species, are all the same - robots who are constantly fulfilling the demands of their culture. It's not like we've ever seen a Klingon who ever put personal feelings or personal desires above "honor".

Every Klingon we met was always duty-bound and honorable. It's not like we've ever seen a Klingon on TNG or DS9 using "honor" as just a catchphrase while they were actually acting out of personal ambition, jealousy, revenge or greed...

What have you been watching?!

Ironic too- Worf is a Klingon, and if you base it on the "Klingon" philosophy of doing things, a Klingon would have left his wife (honorable death?) and completed his mission.

Worf tended to take Klingon philosophy seriously, sometimes too literally for some, yet even HE couldn't leave his wife like that.

So what could Starfleet expect from other humanoids in a situation like that?