Wonder Woman: Yay or Nay

[Red Ranger]

As far as adversaries go, I think enemies that are the complete opposite of the character work best. I can see a supepowered male chauvinst pig with a grudge against woman as a perfect foil for Wonder Woman. Or a twisted version of Amazons who hates the world of man and considers Wonder Woman a traitor to Amazons everywhere as another potential adversary for her. -- RR

 

[YLu]

Nay. Robin/Nightwing or The Flash has more cred as a member of The Big Three then Wonder Woman... And very few can even name a Wonder Woman villain. Much less a supporting character.

And they can for the Flash?

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Or a twisted version of Amazons who hates the world of man and considers Wonder Woman a traitor to Amazons everywhere as another potential adversary for her. -- RR

They did that one in the Timm-verse JLA. Her name was Aresia. I don't know if she has a comic book counterpart.

 

[Yassim]

Part of the problem with WW, as it's been pointed out to me, is that she has no iconic stories.

Superman's origin - everyone knows. The movies - everyone knows. He's vulnerable to Kryptonite, and fights Luthor, and loves Lois.
Batman's origin - everyone knows. He adopted Robin. He's a detective and fights the Joker.

Wonder Woman just doesn't have the same story-related iconography. Her costume is about it. Maybe she just hasn't interested the same level of storytellers? but when your main villain is the Cheetah (she's a woman dressed as a cheetah - oookay) and your most famous interpretation is a campy TV show (she *was* hot), you're a character in trouble.

But that may have been true of Batman in the 60's... so I think she can be saved. But it hasn't happened yet.

 

[CaptainCanada]

but when your main villain is the Cheetah (she's a woman dressed as a cheetah - oookay)

That version of the Cheetah hasn't been used in 25+ years. The modern Cheetah (Dr. Barbara Minerva) is a werecat-type; far more dangerous (when she's not being written by Will Pfeiffer in Catwoman).

Wonder Woman wasn't really interesting to me until Xena premiered and captured my attention; then I realized that the post-Crisis Wonder Woman and Xena were very similar characters (something DC has only emphasized after Xena came on the scene).

No, she isn't. At all. The characters are nothing alike. Xena is a barbarian warrior like Conan; Diana is a noble diplomat and peacemaker. People comparing to Xena has done the character immense damage.

I find her Warrior/Peace Bearer stance a contradictory and clumsy mix.

This is another thing that has been completely misread about the character ever since Kingdom Come's hamfisted take. There is nothing whatsoever contradictory about that, any more than a cop or a UN peacekeeper carrying a gun. Creating a peaceful world means dealing with warmongers.

Now, as to the comics, the character has suffered from a lack of consistency. DC editorial has repeatedly allowed subsequent creative teams to dismantle the work of the most successful runs; Perez was followed by Messner-Loebs, who, though he did contribute some interesting/valuable stuff (Artemis, the Donna Milton story with Circe), got rid of most of Perez's supporting cast and situation; Jiminez and Rucka's runs were followed by the nostalgia-vomit-cocktail of Heinberg and then Amazons Attack. DC's current "let's skip back to the Silver Age" creative trend is frequently detrimental, but nowhere moreso than here, because Silver Age Wondy sucked. Of course, the people in question aren't really thinking of the actual comics, but the...

...Lynda Carter TV show, the other big burden on the mythos. Because it also really, really sucked. But it's got huge nostalgia vibes from the current generation of creators. Whatever it's merits at the time (and there were precious few of those), it's no more a guide to the character than the Adam West Batman.

Diana right now is basically where Batman was in 1988; she's still waiting for Tim Burton to present a serious, dramatic take to the public in lieu of the campy memories of yesteryear (there are a lot of problems with Burton's Batman, but it efficiently showed people that Batman was allowed "ZAP! POW!").

The only media she's gotten since has been in the more limited realm of animation from Bruce Timm, a man who couldn't write a proper Wonder Woman to save his goddamn life; it's depressing, really, given his talent, that all he's got is a knockoff Xena in JLU, and a slightly modified version in the animated film. All the great writers starting with Perez try to move beyond gender-war, and all the bad ones get hung up on that, and Timm is one of them.

 

[Bad Bishop]

I think it goes without saying for me - nay.

We understand.

And Diana would easily clobber Ms. Marvel, any day of the week.

 

[Thrall]

Nay. Robin/Nightwing or The Flash has more cred as a member of The Big Three then Wonder Woman... And very few can even name a Wonder Woman villain. Much less a supporting character.

And they can for the Flash?

Are you kidding? Until recently The Flash was notorious for his lame, cheesy, dated bad guy guys. Which is the difference between WW and Flash. Both have lame bad guys but people have actually heard of The Flash's.

If you're going by man on the street? No. But every average comic fan has at least heard of Zoom/Reverse Flash and are some what aware of why he's a villain. They even did a Robot Chicken skit on him. The same cannot be said of Cheetah.

^Nice avatar. Maybe you'd like Wonder Woman better if she had an outfit like Cammy , huh?

She doesn't? I thought her outfit was one of the reasons she became a sex symbol.

As for Wonder Woman villains you can't name, I remember the Cheetah, who had a dual personality, and, in her newer comics that George Perez drew, Ares the God of War was a chief villain, and they even had the classical Hercules as her mother's adversary.

Selina Kyle 2.0 and the guy every classic mythology-based fantasy has as a bad guy. You're not selling me on the character here.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Female, nay. But I'm not a big fan of DC characters in general. So it's nothing to do with gender.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Selina Kyle 2.0

Again, that version of the Cheetah is seriously outdated.

 

[Thrall]

Selina Kyle 2.0

Again, that version of the Cheetah is seriously outdated.

Considering no one knows anything about her book, or even cares, no one should be expected to know that.

 

[TheArsenal]

Part of the problem with WW, as it's been pointed out to me, is that she has no iconic stories.

Never thought about it in these terms, but you make a good point.

 

[Jeyl]

Yay. I'm a male and I'm just bored over all this BatMAN, SuperMAN, Spider MAN, Iron MAN material that apparently we just can't get enough of. A pity too since not one of these movies ever does anything with their female lead characters other than blowing them up (Rachel from Batman), deliberately putting them in danger (Pepper from Iron Man), constantly getting kidnapped (Mary Jane from Spiderman) and literally doing absolutely nothing (Louis Lane in Superman).

Yep, if that's how you want to preserve the female gender in comic book roles, go right ahead. After all, it's good to stick with what works. Batman and Superman are easy characters to write and they're easy to market. Wonder Woman isn't easy to write for and is harder to market. Unfortunately, everyone looks at those two elements and considers them taboo and they just stop right there, reducing her to a mere supporting character to a group largely consisting of, ya, men. And that's if your lucky! In "The Batman", the Justice League was nothing BUT men.

Hmph. Wonder Woman doesn't have any good 'iconic' stories. If that's the case, tell the writers to try making some than. She's not going to get great if the best character flaw you can come up with is a prejudiced against man. I seriously hated that animated movie and I want to nail Steve to the freaking cross.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Bruce Timm, a man who couldn't write a proper Wonder Woman to save his goddamn life; it's depressing, really, given his talent, that all he's got is a knockoff Xena in JLU, and a slightly modified version in the animated film. All the great writers starting with Perez try to move beyond gender-war, and all the bad ones get hung up on that, and Timm is one of them.

Horsecrap!

The Timm-verse Diana plays quite well, either as "uberfeminist" (albeit toned down a bit in a concession to animation standards and practices) or as a "fish out of water" noble warrior of the ancient school.

I only wish DC's comic writers could write to the level of consistent quality and complexity of the Timm-verse writers...

 

[Ceridwen]

The only media she's gotten since has been in the more limited realm of animation from Bruce Timm, a man who couldn't write a proper Wonder Woman to save his goddamn life; it's depressing, really, given his talent, that all he's got is a knockoff Xena in JLU, and a slightly modified version in the animated film. All the great writers starting with Perez try to move beyond gender-war, and all the bad ones get hung up on that, and Timm is one of them.

I feel lazy just quoting other people in the thread that I agree with, but Wonder Woman threads on this message board have a tendency to go in directions that just make me tired and irritated (and not entirely unsure the "gender war" nonsense is such a bad idea, in the end).

But again, this.

 

[YLu]

But every average comic fan has at least heard of Zoom/Reverse Flash and are some what aware of why he's a villain. They even did a Robot Chicken skit on him. The same cannot be said of Cheetah.

You're kidding yourself if you think Zoom is even close to well-known. He and the Cheetah are pretty much in the same category of characters only known to people who are already interested in the heroes they fight. At least Cheetah had the Superfriends cartoon.

More people know Wonder Woman fights Nazis than even know what color the Flash's hair is.

 

[Thrall]

You're kidding yourself if you think Zoom is even close to well-known. He and the Cheetah are pretty much in the same category of characters only known to people who are already interested in the heroes they fight. At least Cheetah had the Superfriends cartoon.

Read again. I said neither are well known among the average public. But most comic fans could at least name Zoom and know who he is. Probably even Captain Cold and a few others maybe. Very few could do that with any Wonder Woman baddie.

More people know Wonder Woman fights Nazis than even know what color the Flash's hair is.

Considering he wears a hood, that's too be expected.

 

[Hermiod]

Yay. I'm a male and I'm just bored over all this BatMAN, SuperMAN, Spider MAN, Iron MAN material that apparently we just can't get enough of. A pity too since not one of these movies ever does anything with their female lead characters other than blowing them up (Rachel from Batman), deliberately putting them in danger (Pepper from Iron Man), constantly getting kidnapped (Mary Jane from Spiderman) and literally doing absolutely nothing (Louis Lane in Superman).

Yep, if that's how you want to preserve the female gender in comic book roles, go right ahead. After all, it's good to stick with what works. Batman and Superman are easy characters to write and they're easy to market. Wonder Woman isn't easy to write for and is harder to market. Unfortunately, everyone looks at those two elements and considers them taboo and they just stop right there, reducing her to a mere supporting character to a group largely consisting of, ya, men. And that's if your lucky! In "The Batman", the Justice League was nothing BUT men.

Hmph. Wonder Woman doesn't have any good 'iconic' stories. If that's the case, tell the writers to try making some than. She's not going to get great if the best character flaw you can come up with is a prejudiced against man. I seriously hated that animated movie and I want to nail Steve to the freaking cross.

Given how (aside from the current Batman movies) DC is very capable of making a mess of any character it turns in to a movie while Marvel's have been relatively successful, I've got a better idea if you want a female superhero movie.

 

[YLu]

Read again. I said neither are well known among the average public. But most comic fans could at least name Zoom and know who he is. Probably even Captain Cold and a few others maybe. Very few could do that with any Wonder Woman baddie.

I was referring to comic fans. That's why I said "people who are already interested in the heroes they fight." Even among comic fans, Zoom's pretty much only known to people already interested in the Flash. I'd certainly say DC's Circe's more well-known than him. Cheetah, too, most likely.

More people know Wonder Woman fights Nazis than even know what color the Flash's hair is.

Considering he wears a hood, that's too be expected.

Except I wasn't comparing how many people know the Flash's hair color with how many people know Wonder Woman's. I was comparing it with how many people know she fights Nazis, something that also can't be discerned just by looking at the character. It's not like she has a "I hate Nazis" message tattooed on her brow.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Bruce Timm, a man who couldn't write a proper Wonder Woman to save his goddamn life; it's depressing, really, given his talent, that all he's got is a knockoff Xena in JLU, and a slightly modified version in the animated film. All the great writers starting with Perez try to move beyond gender-war, and all the bad ones get hung up on that, and Timm is one of them.

Horsecrap!

The Timm-verse Diana plays quite well, either as "uberfeminist" (albeit toned down a bit in a concession to animation standards and practices) or as a "fish out of water" noble warrior of the ancient school.

I only wish DC's comic writers could write to the level of consistent quality and complexity of the Timm-verse writers...

Timm Wondy was a thug; she stole her weapons, had no mission, was neither graceful nor diplomatic nor wise, would rather punch through a TV screen then listen to someone who disagreed with her; the Amazons were ciphers, and not depicted properly as a superior civilization; her villains were either dull (Ares) or not even connected to her anymore (Cheetah, Giganta) (the exception would be Circe, who I thought was hilarious, but even then, Diana didn't fight her). That ain't a successful adaptation of Wonder Woman. That's a generic warrior chick.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

If you're going by man on the street? No. But every average comic fan has at least heard of Zoom/Reverse Flash and are some what aware of why he's a villain. They even did a Robot Chicken skit on him. The same cannot be said of Cheetah.

I haven't heard of Zoom/Reverse Flash though I do know who Captain Cold and Mirror Master.

As for Wonder Woman I like her as a TV/movie character but I've never cared for her in the comics, go figure. I love the Lynda Carter show too even if it's corny but I grew up with it like the Superfriends so I'm not very objective about it.