Wonder Woman and Batman's current continuity

[Allyn Gibson]

I miss Man of Steel too, except for the part where Lex Luthor was all rapey.

What? What? What?

I think it should be faced up to that Clark as a LoSH member is a bad idea for the character of Superman, whether it works for the Legion or not.

I agree. I thought one of the best things DC ever did was to remove the whole Superboy chapter and all its related nonsense from Clark's life. It let Clark find his own way toward becoming a hero. Having a bunch of teenagers from the far future show up one day and tell Clark that he has this great destiny ahead of him, frankly, removes a lot of Clark's self-growth.

Now, Connor as a member of the Legion I have no trouble with. I thought they handled that quite effectively with the post-Zero Hour, pre-Threeboot Legion, beginning with the Foundations storyline where Connor shows up somehow, he's not what anyone really expects him to be, and he has to prove himself to the Legion and to the 31st-century.

As I stated Superman is about to encounter her for the first time which should be an interesting issue.

With all the fill-in issues in Superman recently, I'm not even sure when that issue is supposed to hit.

I'm more concerned with how "Grounded"'s delays will affect Paul Cornell's Action Comics run and Superman's return to the book, which I'd expect in Action #900.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I don't think that Clark's growth is slowed or somehow hampered by his interaction with the Legion at all. This is coming from a Legion fan so maybe I'm a little biased with my opinion but still I think there is a kind of paradoxical inspiration thing going on between Clark and the Legion is really cool (the fact that they both inspire each other) . Besides Brainy just has Imra mind wipe all the major stuff Clark sees in the future anyway. I like the fact that DC has restored Clark's history with the Legion not only did it show him that he isn't all alone but that he has friends (at a time in his life when he had few and felt alone). I loved the Connor arc in Waid's Threeboot arc...thought it was a pretty cool way of having a Superboy. It's funny that this happened just before Johns would retcon the Legion back to it's Silver Age continuity.

 

[Myasishchev]

I miss Man of Steel too, except for the part where Lex Luthor was all rapey.

What? What? What?

You know, the part where he sexually harasses and physically intimidates that hot scientist (the one who, iirc, helped program the secret identity-finder-outer machine?) to go out with him. It's creepy, and a misstep for the book, I think, as that sort of thing strikes me as little bit beneath Luthor.

I think it should be faced up to that Clark as a LoSH member is a bad idea for the character of Superman, whether it works for the Legion or not.

I agree. I thought one of the best things DC ever did was to remove the whole Superboy chapter and all its related nonsense from Clark's life. It let Clark find his own way toward becoming a hero. Having a bunch of teenagers from the far future show up one day and tell Clark that he has this great destiny ahead of him, frankly, removes a lot of Clark's self-growth.

Yep.

Now, Connor as a member of the Legion I have no trouble with. I thought they handled that quite effectively with the post-Zero Hour, pre-Threeboot Legion, beginning with the Foundations storyline where Connor shows up somehow, he's not what anyone really expects him to be, and he has to prove himself to the Legion and to the 31st-century.

Ha, I didn't even know that happened. Yeah, I could see that working.

 

[EJA]

^ I have never got why you think previous stories are some how negated by new and revised stuff?

But that's what the newer stories are designed to do though, completely replace the earlier ones. And why did they have to bring bloody Superboy back? That's just so lame. They should've just stuck with what Byrne established in Man of Steel.

 

[Admiral_Young]

All of these stories still exist though. It's up to you as a fan if you wanna chose to ignore them or include them in whatever your own personal continuity is. That doesn't mean those stories or lame or that they were wrong for coming up with them in the first place, I find that to be a really narrow minded opinion myself not to mention a bit naive. Comics are like mythology, they're meant to be revised and reinterpreted.

Why is it lame that they brought Connor back? I guess you didn't know that DiDio meant to actually kill Dick Grayson originally in "Infinite Crisis" but ended up changing his mind. The fact of the matter is that comics are a medium where death isn't a constant, it's just gimmick and a way for the companies to make money. Superboy is a popular character. There was a demand to see him return. They brought him back and he has his own ongoing series again that is actually been pretty good. If we adhered to your way of thinking I dunno what either the Marvel or DC universes would look like.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Why is it lame that they brought Connor back?

Admiral, I suspect that when EJA complains that DC brought "bloody Superboy back," he means young Clark, rather than Connor, hence his plea for things to be more like Byrne's Man of Steel.

I'll be honest, I think Man of Steel did a lot of very good, very important things, and one of those good, important things was removing the Superboy period of Clark's life. (Short reason: I think it's more important that Clark find his own destiny and develop into Superman through trial and error than to have his destiny and maturity fiated upon him by, essentially, a bunch of future groupies.)

I understand that some creative types at DC want to harken back to the status quo when they were young and getting into comics. I also understand DC's reasoning behind restoring a Superboy-like phase to Clark's life as they've returned the Legion to a pre-Crisis-like stage, so there's really no way around Clark-as-Superboy for that to work.

EJA, as for your view that "that's what the newer stories are designed to do though, completely replace the earlier ones," that's not a viewpoint I subscribe to at all. Grant Morrison's take on Batman presumes that everything "counts." I've argued in the Doctor Who forum that "The Next Doctor" or "The Eleventh Hour" don't preclude the Richard E. Grant or Douglas Camfield incarnations of the Doctor. Some things do overwrite others, yes, like Wonder Woman's post-Crisis origin, yet I think it's more interesting -- and a richer experience -- to accept, even celebrate, the inconsistencies. Honestly, reconciling the inconsistencies can be a fruitful storytelling engine. And wasn't it Emerson who said that "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"? I'll take the more expansive universe, thanks.

 

[Admiral_Young]

"Batman Brave and the Bold" also takes into account that everything matters. Everything is important in my opinion because it is part of the historical account of said characters no matter how lame, or dumb or bad a particular story line maybe at a time. There is tons of stuff I don't like either but I don't just ignore them or say they didn't happen.

With regards to the "Superboy" name if that is what @EJA meant then that's fine but I happen to like that. The lawsuit I believe had something to do with that. It's also been added that Clark was the Blur at one point too. I too love the more historical and expansive universe.

 

[shivkala]

Sorry, Admiral Young, but I have to disagree, if you are going to continue reading new comics, then the only thing that matters is what the current writers think is important/necessary. For example, I find it hard to reconcile Man of Steel with Superman: Secret Origins. Both present two drastically different versions of Krypton and I prefer the Man of Steel version. Now, I guess you could assume that Byrne only showed us the science guild in MoS and the other guilds as seen in World of New Krypton were around, just not in any scene we saw. I especially liked how MoS only had Superman survive Krypton's explosion, as it made him unique.

I basically agree with everything Chris Sims said here about the origins, especially the part about All-Star Superman.

Back on topic, Final Crisis really did not make any changes to continuity (except for, arguably, the Legion's, but that was more Infinite Crisis than Final Crisis, the Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds mini just cleared up which Legion was which). I guess you could argue since Final Crisis begat The Return of Bruce Wayne, that FC did amend Batman's continuity to make the mythology of Batman stretch all the way back to cavemen days.

The 1 page origin in All-Star Superman should really apply to all characters. The more they bog us down in little bits, the easier it is for others to re-write the origins and negate everything we've read, until the next writer comes along. For me, these are the 1 page origins:

Batman: Night on the town. Tragic accident. Years of preparation. Superstitious, cowardly lot.

Wonder Woman: Island of Amazons. A mother's wish. A god's gift. Gifted by gods. A mission to Man's World.

Green Lantern: A dying alien. A gift. A galactic police force. Overcoming fear.

Flash (Barry Allen): A dedicated police scientist. A late night at the lab. A freak accident. A gift of speed.

 

[Admiral_Young]

We're not supposed to reconcile "Man of Steel" with "Secret Origins". Secret Origins is the new status quo of Clark Kent's origin, or at least Geoff Johns interpretation of his youth. That doesn't mean though that "Man of Steel" is somehow now invalid as a story. I feel like that is what EJA is attempting to do by picking and choosing elements of a character's history and establishing his own continuity. I don't have a problem with that though, my gripe is simply dismissing the story as not having any importance any more. I think that's dumb honestly. Every story has it's own value...it might not be charted as "the continuity of the day" but it still exists on it's own. Continuity is always in flux too and isn't something that is fixed in stone.

 

[Mr Light]

What's EJA?

 

[Nerys Myk]

The guy who started the thread.

 

[Silvercrest]

And wasn't it Emerson who said that "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"?

Dr. Polaris?

 

[Myasishchev]

And Dr. Light said, "It's rapin' time!"

 

[EJA]

Where the changes in Superman's origin in Birthright actually established to have been caused by a Crisis?

 

[shivkala]

Birthright was an oddity. DC never fully admitted it was canon. Superman 200 ended with Superman having to go through two different time tunnels, one with the MoS Krypton and one with a more modern take on the Pre-Crisis Krypton. He took the latter (from what I've read, I never read the actual issue). Thus, for the period from 2003 to 2009's Secret Origin Superman had no "official" origin, but things were more akin to Birthright than MoS, if that makes sense.

 

[Mr Light]

And Dr. Light said, "It's rapin' time!"

No relation to Mr. Light I'd like to add

 

[Stevil2001]

Birthright was an oddity. DC never fully admitted it was canon. Superman 200 ended with Superman having to go through two different time tunnels, one with the MoS Krypton and one with a more modern take on the Pre-Crisis Krypton. He took the latter (from what I've read, I never read the actual issue). Thus, for the period from 2003 to 2009's Secret Origin Superman had no "official" origin, but things were more akin to Birthright than MoS, if that makes sense.

The designs in Birthright were used in stories like Superman Batman: Supergirl and Superman For Tomorrow, as I recall-- the Jor-El robot (shudder) in the latter matches Jor-El's physical design in Birthright.

 

[Admiral_Young]

The changes in "Birthright" were not caused by any Crisis. It was simply just another take on Superman's origin. It might be noteworthy now because it is rumored that Zack Snyder's upcoming "Superman" movie has taken plot points from the book. I remember being very underwhelmed by "Birthright" as a whole. There were small bits and pieces that I liked about it but ultimately it failed to be the definitive take on Superman's origin. Essentially the only things that really have remained from it are that it reestablished Lex and Clark's childhood friendship, and it featured the sunstone crystals. I did like it's take on Martha.

 

[Myasishchev]

Is Superman still a vegetarian? I thought that was great.

 

[EJA]

I do seem to recall reading somewhere that Birthright was originally intended to stand on its own.