Women Warriors? NEVER!!!

[RobertScorpio]

We were watching STAR TREK; DS9 this weekend and my 15 year old, who is now interested in TREK thanks to XI (JJ's ulitmate goal by the way) had a question; Are there women warriors in TREK...

The simple answer is yes, I supposed, but is it? The so-called 'warrior races' don't seem to think so. I saw Klingon women on their ships, eating food with Riker, and on the bridge, but I never saw them on the ground in battle..

The Jem'Hedar? I don't even think I ever saw a Jem'Hedar female.

Cardassians? Yeah, they showed a woman in charge of the Obsidian Order, but I never saw female Cardassians fighting..

Bajorans? Yes..definately. Kira, Ro laren, are among TREK's most formidable women. But on a boader front? I think the GRUNTS of Trek's future, the hardcore fighters, are equipped with a penis.

What do you think?

Rob

 

[Klaitu]

Jadzia was shown doing a lot of hand-to-hand combat, particularly in the klingon arts. Grilka was also sown wielding a batleth.

The Jem'Hadar don't have women. They are cloned.

Korinas, the woman who was part of the obsidian order in "DS9: Defiant" was not the head of the obsidian order. She was hiding Enabran Tain's ships who would later be going into the Gamma quadrant to be destroyed.

Bajorans get the most play in terms of fighting, thanks to Kira, who is shown phasering multiple bad guys for the Cardassian resistance.

Ezri did some phasering in the siege of AR-558.

And, of course, there's Tasha Yar, who not only played parisi squares, but also engaged in cheesy battle with a pincushion hand!

Janeway, Seven, and Torres all had their share of sweaty, revealing combat situations.

Elizabeth Shelby phasered some borg, Dr. Crusher also phasered some in the same episode.

I think there's been plenty of combat to go around.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Jadzia was shown doing a lot of hand-to-hand combat, particularly in the klingon arts. Grilka was also sown wielding a batleth.

The Jem'Hadar don't have women. They are cloned.

Korinas, the woman who was part of the obsidian order in "DS9: Defiant" was not the head of the obsidian order. She was hiding Enabran Tain's ships who would later be going into the Gamma quadrant to be destroyed.

Bajorans get the most play in terms of fighting, thanks to Kira, who is shown phasering multiple bad guys for the Cardassian resistance.

Ezri did some phasering in the siege of AR-558.

And, of course, there's Tasha Yar, who not only played parisi squares, but also engaged in cheesy battle with a pincushion hand!

Janeway, Seven, and Torres all had their share of sweaty, revealing combat situations.

Elizabeth Shelby phasered some borg, Dr. Crusher also phasered some in the same episode.

I think there's been plenty of combat to go around.

Most of these are Starfleet examples, and Starfleet, the Federation as a whole, wouldn't be considered, in my opinion, a warrior race or society.

Klingons and Jem'Hedar, maybe even the Hirogen, would be. When I think of these warrior races I don't see too many women on the ground fighting. Is TREK sexist in this regard?

Rob

 

[TheSeeker]

What about that race from TNG where all the women were bigger than the men and were the dominant sex?

 

[RobertScorpio]

What about that race from TNG where all the women were bigger than the men and were the dominant sex?

That was ANGEL ONE, I think. But hardly one of TREK's most 'notable' warrior races..

Did sexism from the writers/network/Berman, meaning our society, prevent this lack of any real, hardcore, warrior women outside a few bread crumbs (Kira, Ro and Tasha)?

Rob

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think if a script requires female warriors, I believe Trek will do that in a heartbeat. But to the question of Trek being sexist, I think it's closer to an oversight because the Hollywood casting call for alien warriors probably don't call for women most of the time unless someone higher up says "Hey, we need a few women fighters in this scene."

 

[Klaitu]

Most of these are Starfleet examples, and Starfleet, the Federation as a whole, wouldn't be considered, in my opinion, a warrior race or society.

Klingons and Jem'Hedar, maybe even the Hirogen, would be. When I think of these warrior races I don't see too many women on the ground fighting. Is TREK sexist in this regard?

Rob

Since all the shows are pretty much about starfleet, you're limiting yourself to guest-starring roles.

Talas the Andorian was a strong female character.

Yareena of Ligon II was involved in a battle to the death with Tasha Yar.

Anya and Salia of Daled IV were capable of turning into.. monster-like beasts for combat (though they were never shown doing anything more than growling meancingly)

K'Ehleyr was the bane of glass tables everywhere.

Commander Sela was a particularly troublesome Romulan.

Commander Donatra was shown in combat.

The Duras sisters were so into combat that they somehow managed to take down the Enterprise-D with a 20 year old bird of prey.

I still think there are plenty of women warriors around.

 

[Timo]

The Jem'Hadar don't have women. They are cloned.

Which raises the question, do they have men?

One might think that when engineering a (whole new?) species of fearsome warriors, the Founders would have built in the capability to rape - thereby perhaps making the Jem'Hadar "men" after a fashion. After all, these warriors would see very few actual wars, but would be frequently called in to terrorize the Dominion subjects. And rape would probably be a more fearsome weapon than disruptor or blade.

With Klingon warriors, it doesn't seem that we have good statistics on ground fighting. It's so extremely rare for anybody to fight a ground battle in Trek... The only massed battle with Klingon involvement was a fake one, the holographic duel between Klingons and Nazis in "Killing Game". No doubt stereotypical Klingons would be used in that simulation, just as stereotypical Nazis were used, without heed to how a real 1944 German military formation might look like.

With Cardassian warriors, we have never seen a real ground battle. The closest we get is the street fighting where Damar finally gets his martyrdom. But the Cardassian society was said to be highly structured. Male scientists, engineers and probably also jurists were virtually unheard of, males being considered categorically unsuitable for such professions ("Destiny" and "Tribunal"); quite possibly female soldiers would be shunned as well. I wouldn't wonder if the Obsidian Order was an exception to this rule, though, with more easygoing and utilitarian attitudes.

Romulans have always been quite egalitarian when it comes to the military profession. A great deal of their soldiers seem to be women; female starship commanders may even outnumber male ones. There's no evidence of glass ceilings, either. But we've never seen Romulans do ground fighting. I wonder how Remans view the matter? Or how Romulans view the matter of using Remans in ground combat? It doesn't seem that one could tell a male Reman from a female one without expertise we in the audience do not yet have...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RobertScorpio]

The Jem'Hadar don't have women. They are cloned.

Which raises the question, do they have men?

One might think that when engineering a (whole new?) species of fearsome warriors, the Founders would have built in the capability to rape - thereby perhaps making the Jem'Hadar "men" after a fashion. After all, these warriors would see very few actual wars, but would be frequently called in to terrorize the Dominion subjects. And rape would probably be a more fearsome weapon than disruptor or blade.

With Klingon warriors, it doesn't seem that we have good statistics on ground fighting. It's so extremely rare for anybody to fight a ground battle in Trek... The only massed battle with Klingon involvement was a fake one, the holographic duel between Klingons and Nazis in "Killing Game". No doubt stereotypical Klingons would be used in that simulation, just as stereotypical Nazis were used, without heed to how a real 1944 German military formation might look like.

With Cardassian warriors, we have never seen a real ground battle. The closest we get is the street fighting where Damar finally gets his martyrdom. But the Cardassian society was said to be highly structured. Male scientists, engineers and probably also jurists were virtually unheard of, males being considered categorically unsuitable for such professions ("Destiny" and "Tribunal"); quite possibly female soldiers would be shunned as well. I wouldn't wonder if the Obsidian Order was an exception to this rule, though, with more easygoing and utilitarian attitudes.

Romulans have always been quite egalitarian when it comes to the military profession. A great deal of their soldiers seem to be women; female starship commanders may even outnumber male ones. There's no evidence of glass ceilings, either. But we've never seen Romulans do ground fighting. I wonder how Remans view the matter? Or how Romulans view the matter of using Remans in ground combat? It doesn't seem that one could tell a male Reman from a female one without expertise we in the audience do not yet have...

Timo Saloniemi

Good post...

Now, I cant' recall, but when the Klingons attacked DS9 in WAY OF THE WARRIOR, were there any Klingon women seen in those fighting scenes aboard DS9? I can't recall...But that would have been a great chance to show female Klingon ground troops...

rob

 

[captcalhoun]

no, there weren't.

as for female Cardassian soldiers, I direct your attention to Gul Ocett (i think) in THe Chase.

 

[DevilEyes]

Romulans seem to have an equal number of males and females among the officers we've seen, including several ship commanders (the rank equivalent of a Starfleet captain): the unnamed commander in TOS The Enterprise Incident, Toreth (TNG Face of the Enemy), Sela, Donatra.

We've also seen Andorian female officers, like Tarah, Shran's extremist second in command in ENT Cease Fire.

Cardassian military seems to mostly consist of males, although there are exceptions, like Gul Ocett. Apart from her and a couple of extras - an unnamed officer seen in TNG Preemptive Strike and a unnamed guard in the Mirror Universe (if that counts), I can't remember many times we've seen female Cardassian soldiers. It seems that military is seen as a male domain just like sciences and engineering are seen as female. I don't know what it's like with judges - the Chief Archon in Tribunal was female, but that doesn't mean that there are no male judges, especially since the pubic defender was male - so it's not like there is any indication that men are rare in the legal profession. As for the Obsidian Order, they employ both males and females, as one would expect.

I'm pretty sure we've seen females in Klingon army several times. I remember the one from that ENT season 1 episode, what was it... ah yes, Sleeping Dogs, she was an engineer... then there was at least one female officer in Martok's crew on DS9. I'm not sure if B'etor and Lursa ever had any kind of official rank, but they were most certainly warriors - they even started the Klingon Civil War!

Of course, Bajoran Resistance and Bajoran Militia are completely gender-equal, men and women (or, in some cases, boys and girls) seemed to have been equally represented: Kira, Ro, Lupaza, we've also seen female Bajoran personnel on DS9 besides Kira (like the engineer/religious fanatic from In The Hands of the Prophets).

The Jem'Hadar don't have women. They are cloned.

Which raises the question, do they have men?

One might think that when engineering a (whole new?) species of fearsome warriors, the Founders would have built in the capability to rape - thereby perhaps making the Jem'Hadar "men" after a fashion. After all, these warriors would see very few actual wars, but would be frequently called in to terrorize the Dominion subjects. And rape would probably be a more fearsome weapon than disruptor or blade.

I think it was pretty clearly implied in To The Death that they were completely asexual. And they never display even the slightest interest in sex or anything sexual in any of the episodes - all they care about is the kettracel white and VICTORY!

And the Jem'Hadar just said they didn't have any women - technically he didn't say they had men, since that was not Jadzia's question.

 

[Myasishchev]

The Jem'Hadar don't have women. They are cloned.

Which raises the question, do they have men?

One might think that when engineering a (whole new?) species of fearsome warriors, the Founders would have built in the capability to rape - thereby perhaps making the Jem'Hadar "men" after a fashion. After all, these warriors would see very few actual wars, but would be frequently called in to terrorize the Dominion subjects. And rape would probably be a more fearsome weapon than disruptor or blade.

Ha! Interesting theory, though I suspect orbital bombardment would suffice for terror.

I reckon the day-to-day of Jem'Hadar occupation would be more like standard police work.

With Klingon warriors, it doesn't seem that we have good statistics on ground fighting. It's so extremely rare for anybody to fight a ground battle in Trek... The only massed battle with Klingon involvement was a fake one, the holographic duel between Klingons and Nazis in "Killing Game". No doubt stereotypical Klingons would be used in that simulation, just as stereotypical Nazis were used, without heed to how a real 1944 German military formation might look like.

WTFF. You made that up, right?

It doesn't seem that one could tell a male Reman from a female one without expertise we in the audience do not yet have...

I dunno--they probably have mammary glands. Everybody apparently has mammary glands. (But particularly if they're just Romulans with rickets.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

 

[Timo]

as for female Cardassian soldiers, I direct your attention to Gul Ocett (i think) in THe Chase.

One might argue that Ocett was a scientist, as the mission was one of scientific pursuit...

I think it was pretty clearly implied in To The Death that they were completely asexual. And they never display even the slightest interest in sex or anything sexual in any of the episodes - all they care about is the kettracel white and VICTORY!

I don't mean the Founders would install a sex drive. They might still install a penis, so that a highly disciplined raping rampage could be launched at the command of the First whenever one was called for.

WTFF. You made that up, right?

You haven't seen "Killing Game"? When I did, I also got a very vivid image of the planning session where the writers pitched this idea... It's even more hilarious than it sounds.

Of course, Bajoran Resistance and Bajoran Militia are completely gender-equal

Except that Kira apparently is the only female militia officer of higher than Captain rank. I wonder why they did that? Why no female adversaries for Kira? Was it that Kai Winn needed male cronies and goons in order to be dramatically effective as the Queen Bitch?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hermiod]

We were watching STAR TREK; DS9 this weekend and my 15 year old, who is now interested in TREK thanks to XI (JJ's ulitmate goal by the way) had a question; Are there women warriors in TREK...

The simple answer is yes, I supposed, but is it? The so-called 'warrior races' don't seem to think so. I saw Klingon women on their ships, eating food with Riker, and on the bridge, but I never saw them on the ground in battle..

The Jem'Hedar? I don't even think I ever saw a Jem'Hedar female.

Cardassians? Yeah, they showed a woman in charge of the Obsidian Order, but I never saw female Cardassians fighting..

Bajorans? Yes..definately. Kira, Ro laren, are among TREK's most formidable women. But on a boader front? I think the GRUNTS of Trek's future, the hardcore fighters, are equipped with a penis.

What do you think?

I think Star Trek is just reflecting the world we live in today where the overwhelming majority of the world's front line military personel are male. The even more overwhelming majority of the world's military casualties are male (for the US it's something like 97%).

Countries as supposedly civilised as the US still only require men to register for a potential draft.

Timo is right about Cardassian society. "Destiny" shows us that amongst Cardassians, engineering and the sciences are primarily a female dominated profession.

 

[DevilEyes]

as for female Cardassian soldiers, I direct your attention to Gul Ocett (i think) in THe Chase.

One might argue that Ocett was a scientist, as the mission was one of scientific pursuit...

Scientists don't hold the rank of gul or command a Galor-class warship.

Of course, Bajoran Resistance and Bajoran Militia are completely gender-equal

Except that Kira apparently is the only female militia officer of higher than Captain rank. I wonder why they did that? Why no female adversaries for Kira? Was it that Kai Winn needed male cronies and goons in order to be dramatically effective as the Queen Bitch?

How do you know? How often did we get to see Bajoran majors, colonels and generals?

 

[The Badger]

I wonder if it is a simple matter of practicality? The producers phone up central casting and say '"We've got a big fight scene coming up. We need a dozen or so stunt performers who are skilled in stage combat."

If there are relatively few female performers with suitable training, then we shouldn't be surprised to see mostly men.

There may be other factors. If they already have plenty of male Klingon stunt uniforms, they're not going to waste money creating some for women if it's only going to be seen for a few seconds.

 

[Timo]

Scientists don't hold the rank of gul or command a Galor-class warship.

Why not? Seems that spies do, too.

How do you know? How often did we get to see Bajoran majors, colonels and generals?

Often enough. "The Circle"/"The Siege" and "Shakaar" were full of them, all male. Several colonels and one general were specified in dialogue as holding those ranks, and other officers could be identified by the amount of brass they wore.

If there are relatively few female performers with suitable training, then we shouldn't be surprised to see mostly men.

But stuntwomen are in high demand, and no doubt supply has risen to meet this by now.

Also, a "crowd" of stunt extras never numbers more than eight people in Trek... Finding two or three women for that group shouldn't be that big a problem. That also goes for the uniform supply. And we've seen unisex use of uniforms, too: Klingon Kleavage (TM) is usually for major guest stars, whereas generic uniforms were worn in e.g. "A Matter of Honor".

Which makes one wonder whether some of the Klingon warriors we have thought of as male have actually been females. (Outworlders are often confused by the facial hair...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DevilEyes]

Scientists don't hold the rank of gul or command a Galor-class warship.

Why not? Seems that spies do, too.

Spies have all sorts of 'regular' professions. What is your point? We don't know whether Ocett has any scientific background or not, but we do know for fact that she is a high-ranking officer in the military and commands a warship. If you're arguing that she got her rank because of a scientific background, there is no basis for that idea in anything we've seen. Every Cardassian scientist we've seen was a civilian, and I don't see why and how one would get to command a warship based on their scientific background.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I wonder if it is a simple matter of practicality? The producers phone up central casting and say '"We've got a big fight scene coming up. We need a dozen or so stunt performers who are skilled in stage combat."

If there are relatively few female performers with suitable training, then we shouldn't be surprised to see mostly men.

There may be other factors. If they already have plenty of male Klingon stunt uniforms, they're not going to waste money creating some for women if it's only going to be seen for a few seconds.

After 60+ years of TV, I would hope there is a good stock of athletic stunt women...but you may have something there..

(2 posts down, 2 to go)

Rob