Quite right. Tell that to that 'affirmative action' bollocks. If women get parity with men in a television series it's 'affirmative action'. Give me a break. Women aren't an ethnic minority.
Women in Star Trek
- Thread starter wefarrell
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Quite right. Tell that to that 'affirmative action' bollocks. If women get parity with men in a television series it's 'affirmative action'. Give me a break. Women aren't an ethnic minority.
It's a long time since I saw the Voyager episode in question, but I think it might be interesting for the OP to give some consideration to the conversation that Janeway and her staff have about how they should address her. Not sir, not ma'am. They mostly settled for "captain". I found it interesting that she doesn't really get a routine derferential form of address other than her rank.
^ IIRC, Capt. Janeway specifically stated that she preferred not to be called “Ma'am,” though I don't recall if she gave a reason. Maybe because it reminded her of “Mammy,” or “mammogram”?
On a related note, why was Saavik addressed as “Mister” in TWOK? Maybe it was supposed to be cute, but it just seemed bizarre. In the entire history of the franchise, has any other female Starfleet officer been called “Mister”?
On a related note, why was Saavik addressed as “Mister” in TWOK? Maybe it was supposed to be cute, but it just seemed bizarre. In the entire history of the franchise, has any other female Starfleet officer been called “Mister”?
I'm not sure I can agree with that description. Seven and B'Elanna has a TON of character development compared to either Beverly or Deanna. (And no, eating chocolate doesn't count as character development). Saying that the VOY Women are depicted according to a TNG style type writing approach is seriously flawed.
Seven goes from being a borg drone, to being to an ex-borg dealing with her borg nature and struggling to integrate with the crew, who eventually faces her troubled memories both as a borg and as a human and learns a lot in the process, and then blossoms into a vulnerable yet strongwilled woman who's theme of reclaiming her humanity is an ongoing struggle for several seasons.
And B'Elanna goes from being an angry klingon woman belonging to a terrorist organization, to becoming an angry klingon woman who is an essential but uncomfortable part of the crew, who is restisting and pusing back every step of the way but eventually gives in and tries to learn how to control her volatile klingon nature with the help of Tuvok. Later, she enters a relationship with Tom, that eventually turns serious, with a lot of bumps along the ride. A relationship that is developed over 4 seasons (but initiated by events taking place in season 3), and she eventually marries him in early season 7 and than later gets pregnant. Each one of these story lines is a major character/story arc that changing the very fundamentals of her existance: Becoming an uncomfortable member of the Voyager crew; learning to integrate with her shipmates; dealing with her klingon nature; facing her troubled childhood; getting together with Tom; working out their relationship issues over several seasons; eventually marrying him; becoming pregnant; and finally delivering in late S7. Hell, this is a lot more character development than any of the male Voyager characters recieves (with the possible exception of the doctor).
In what way is this a typical TNG style depiction of women?
Warped 9:
Well, after looking at the lines again in Turnabout Intruder. It could be interpreted either way.
However, one thing that helps to suggest otherwise is Pike's bigoted attitude towards women (besides his Number One of course). I mean, why would Pike say that a woman doesn't belong on the bridge if he had knowledge of female starship Captains? It just doesn't jive.
Plus, Star Trek The Original Series was known for addressing issues of it's time. And I am sure it was no coincidence that they wanted to point out that women still had a hard time in getting into certain positions.
Besides, seeing this TV Series was geared towards mostly men, I am sure they left the episode open to interpretation (concerning women becoming Captains).
Although, there was an equality bill that was passed in the late 60s. The change of that bill didn't happen over night. Women in the 60s still could not get hired into certain types of jobs. Also, the only women who were fighter pilots in WW2 were Russian females. American women served within the military, but they DID NOT SERVE in combat positions or postings. This was still the case in the 1960s. As for Lucille Ball: she obviously was not hired for the position. She was intimate with the owner of Desilu (and thus became co-owners of the company because of that fact).
Star Trek did have a more futuristic mindset or approach to it's show. However, it was still heavily influenced by the times in which it lived in.
The modern concept of gearing a prime-time TV series toward a specific demographic didn't exist in the 1960s. Shows were made to appeal to the widest audience possible. When the Star Trek pilot was shown to preview audiences, both men AND women disliked the Number One character. Men found a strong-willed female with command responsibilities too domineering, while women (in those pre-Women's Lib days) had the attitude of, “Who the hell does she think SHE is?”
True, but there were the WASPs -- the Women Airforce Service Pilots. They were ferry pilots who flew fighter and bomber aircraft between air bases in the United States, although I don't believe they made any trans-oceanic flights.
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I liked Harry too, although they should have allowed him to develop more over the years - a 3sum with the twins or something! Nevertheless, when a character dies or leaves fans are always going to be disappointed but I still prefer that to be a risk. They should have killed a few more characters part way through the seasons of al the shows in my view but I prefer to see supporting characters elevated rather than bringing in completely new characters. The weakness in modern Trek is that they often don't have many supporting characters.
However, you exhibit a similar mindset to the writers - that bromances must be between blokes. Why couldn't Tom have a buddy relationship with a woman or vice versa? These preconceptions hamper the writers in my view.
They should create characters, roll the dice to determine their sex and then let the actors work with the writers to enhance the bare bones. Blimey if Marina had got her way, Troi would have been a lot more bad ass and a much more exciting character because of it (sword-fighting instead of clay pots for starters).
I neglected to comment on this the last time. I don't think it's true that female castmembers were not sexualized on TOS (and I'm not talking about the miniskirts). Yeoman Rand's primary role was obviously to be the sex symbol and love interest for Kirk, and in the episodes that she had the largest role in, she was the object of Charlie's crush (Charlie X),of Evil Kirk's rape attempt (The Enemy Within), or Miri's jealousy (Miri). Uhura mostly escaped that fate, but that was because interracial relationships were still taboo at the time. Some would say that it was a blessing in disguise since it lead to her being depicted primarily as a professional, but it also lead to her being a background character and having a minimal role in most of the episodes. When she did have a larger role, it was mostly connected to her gender: being the object of Mirror Sulu's lust and using it to help the crew, or as a victim of an attempted rape in "Gamesters of Triskelion" (there's no need to explain why a male couldn't have been portrayed as a victim of rape or attempted rape in 1960s), or being forced to kiss her captain in "Plato's Stepchildren". Nurse Chapel was there mostly to pine after Spock, and her centric episode focused on her scientist fiancee. TOS did have quite a few female officers, crewmembers, and other female professionals, but any time any of them had a prominent role, they were some man's love interests (Yeoman Barrows, Helen Noel, Marla McGivers, Carolyn Palamas, Kirk's exes in "Court Martial" and "The Deadly Years"...); Ann Mulhall was possessed by the female alien who was the wife of the alien who would possess Kirk. Same goes for female guest stars: even though some of them were strong, capable women, almost all of them were there to be love interests (e.g Edith Keeler). TOS gave us a first female ship commander - though an alien one - but even the Romulan Commander had a very gender-specific role through her relationship with Spock. (Though it has to be said that this was not writer D.C.Fontana's original intention - she said that the romance plot was added to her script by others, and that she thought a Romulan Commander would not fall for such a scheme.) Non-gender specific roles were almost always cast as male, the "default" gender. The only exceptions I can think of are T'Pau and the female crewmember who gets vaporized in "By Any Other Name".
On the whole, TOS was much more progressive when it came to racial and ethnic relations than when it comes to gender. It had its progressive moments (like the dialogue between Kirk and the 1960s astronaut in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" - "A woman?" "A crewmember") but it also had some very sexist moments - like Spock's comment to Rand at the end of "The Enemy Within" or the statements about women being more emotional, less rational, more prone to fear ("Wolf in the Fold"). I can cut the show some slack for the lack of female roles due to the time, but I can't cut it slack for moments like these, which were not due to any network interference.
As for TNG, I think we can see signs of progression when it comes to female roles during the show's run, and that some of the recurring characters and guest stars in the middle and late seasons made up for the relatively poor main female characters (and even Troi progressed as a character from season 1 to season 7). More about that in some other post, since I don't have the time now.
It is hilarious indeed.
It is, however, very telling of the actual attitudes and the degree of 'equality' in our society, since someone actually wrote that, as ludicrous as it is. However, I haven't seen anyone post this:
Why hasn't anyone posted this, as opposed to the quote above? Because there are apparently lots of people who think of male gender as "default" gender: apparently, gender only becomes an issue when there is a FEMALE character in the show, so the best way not to call any attention to gender would be... to have all the characters be male?Nobody said:
I'm sorry, but, no, there is no such thing as a default gender, and a character being MALE is as much a gender issue as a character being female. So, if one is going to start asking "why is character X female? What did the writers want to achieve with that?", then one should also ask "why are character A, B and C male? What was the writers' intention when they made them male?"Exactly. It's that old "women and men can't be friends" and "women are there to be love interests" crap. It seems that a bromance between a man and a woman is only possible if the woman was a man in the previous life and the man sees her as his old mentor, as with Jadzia Dax and Sisko. And even then, the writers couldn't help but play with the idea of a possible attraction/hookup, even if it was just for comedy purposes ("Fascination"). If anything goes in episodes like that, or in the MU (which featured a Mirror Dax/(Mirror) Sisko sexual relationship), then why not have, say, Bashir making out with O'Brien under the influence of the disease of the week, or Mirror Quark as Mirror Odo's lover? Obviously, different rules apply to male/male relationships and the male/female ones.
Admiral Pike:
Ensign Ro was essentially B'Elanna.
Ensign Ro and B'Elanna were both ill tempered criminal outcasts that became a part of a Starfleet crew.
And Seven of Nine was essentially Picard.
Seven of Nine had only two and a half episodes of her being a Borg drone. Picard was a drone for two and a half episodes as well (Best of Both Worlds and Emissary). The majority of Seven's character had learned and grown just as much as any major character on TNG (Check below for an explanation on the TNG/VOY female comparisons).
Now, Deep Space Nine was different. By the fourth season they started to build on the characters from that point on. Character development was integrated into significant arcs.
Picard and Crusher had a history. They might have not have went full throttle with it, but they did grow closer to one another.
Riker and Troi also had a history. They went on and off for a while, and Troi even dated Worf for a while; however, in the end: Riker and Troi ended back together with one another.
And if you want to weigh in all of the scales: Janeway literally had no character development. She pretty much remained constant through the entire series. Granted, she had her odd mood swings, but that is the way she had always been.
Yeah, I definitely agree that DS9 had the most character development of all the trek series. And maybe VOY does suffer from the TNG syndrome to some extent. But I can't really see how B'Elanna and Seven can be compared to Beverly and Deanna.
On the other hand, Seven being a partial borg/ex-drone had an impact on the majority of her story lines, from her dealing with her childhood and the assimilation of her parents in "The Raven", to her being unconfortable and distanceing herself from the crew, to her taking social lessons from the Doctor, to her interactions with the borg queen in several episodes, to her expertise being used in dealing with the borg on numerous occations, to her nanoprobes being used for various purposes (yeah, I know, the nanoprobes were overused as a plot device, but it still counts), to her interactions with Icheb and taking on responsibility of the Borg kids, to Seven being an integral part of the Unimatrix Zero storyline, to the episode when the Doctor is downloaded into Seven's borg implants and takes over her body, etc etc.
Finally, if we compare Seven from early S4 to S5 to late S7, there's a huge difference. At first, she's rather cold and detached, then later gradually opens up, befriends her crewmates and explores what it means to be an individal. In S4 and 5, she can be seen as rather childlike, which is also how the crew threats her at times (especially Janeway and the Doctor), but later she matures into a woman with adult responsibilities and relationships (taking care of the borg kids, mentoring Icheb, romancing with Chakotay etc). Seven gaining her humanity and integrating with the crew is a process that takes a long time.
Now, I have to admit I had nearly forgot about the Troi/Worf relationship which lasts for about half a season, since it's just seen in 2-3 episodes. I always remember those two as breaking up after a couple of episodes. Maybe if they had done something more with the Troi/Worf romance and actually developed it thoughout S/7 I could see it as something more than a one-off thing. When I saw them together in AGT I was at first
, then I was thinking "Oh yeah... those two". If a relationship is just seen in 2-3 episodes, then it's pretty hard to take it seriously. Maybe that's what you mean by TNG type storytelling (which at least B'Elanna/Tom can't be blamed for).
Finally, the TNG movies can't be used as an example of storytelling on the TNG television show.
On TNG, the only person with any major long-term character development and lasting character arcs is Worf. His klingon story arcs as well as his relationship with Keylahr and taking care of Alexander, are long-term stories that makes him reevalue his existence and grow. He finally comes to terms with his being klingon, and just as he is being accepted into the klingon culture, he has to take on the dishonor to save Q'onos from a civil war. That and taking care of Alexander are all inportant lessons that causes Worf to grow in meaningful ways.
Data also changes and grows throughout the show (just compare S1 Data with S7 Data), though it's less tangible than Worf. Unfortunately, too many of Data's lessons are things he has already forgotten about in the next episode. (Something which, at times, also Seven can be guilty of). And the emotion ship is never really used until the movies.
The rest of the TNG characters all have pretty much the same status in S7 as they do in the first seasons - and this on a federation starship in the alpha quadrant. Riker not getting his own ship after BoBW was in my opinion a huge cop-out by the writers/producers. Not following through with either Picard/Chrusher or Troi/Riker was another.
Voyager may not be DS9 in terms of character development, but at least they don't treat their female characters like TNG treats Chrusher and Troi (hell, Deanna almost gets more cahracter development on Voyager than she gets on TNG
).
But in Voyager's favor, it does have 3 powerful female characters who together gets at least as much screen time as their male counterparts, and even recieves more character development (not that underdeveloped male characters is anything to applaud).
That's quite an oversimplification to say the least. Aside from the fact that Seven isn't in any way, shape of form similar to Picard, neither in terms of backstory nor in personalty, the borg storyline didn't have any real impact of Picard's character arc aside from the episode "Family" (and later also in First Contact, but it's the television series we're discussing here, not the movies).
On the other hand, Seven being a partial borg/ex-drone had an impact on the majority of her story lines, from her dealing with her childhood and the assimilation of her parents in "The Raven", to her being unconfortable and distanceing herself from the crew, to her taking social lessons from the Doctor, to her interactions with the borg queen in several episodes, to her expertise being used in dealing with the borg on numerous occations, to her nanoprobes being used for various purposes (yeah, I know, the nanoprobes were overused as a plot device, but it still counts), to her interactions with Icheb and taking on responsibility of the Borg kids, to Seven being an integral part of the Unimatrix Zero storyline, to the episode when the Doctor is downloaded into Seven's borg implants and takes over her body, etc etc.
Finally, if we compare Seven from early S4 to S5 to late S7, there's a huge difference. At first, she's rather cold and detached, then later gradually opens up, befriends her crewmates and explores what it means to be an individal. In S4 and 5, she can be seen as rather childlike, which is also how the crew threats her at times (especially Janeway and the Doctor), but later she matures into a woman with adult responsibilities and relationships (taking care of the borg kids, mentoring Icheb, romancing with Chakotay etc). Seven gaining her humanity and integrating with the crew is a process that takes a long time.
Yeah, but aside from the first couple of episodes, their history doesn't really show much. TNG was pretty worthless when it comes to long-term relationships. Picard/Chrusher is revived in the later seasons for a single episode, and then never heard of again. Picard has a new love interest in each TNG movie. And all references to the Riker/Troi romance on memory alpha (aside from Insurrection and Nemesis) are from the first five episodes. (Yeah I know, I'm really lousy, I actually had to check). Troi at one time also begins romancing with a transporter clone of Riker, but since Thomas Riker is not Will, that hardly counts.
Now, I have to admit I had nearly forgot about the Troi/Worf relationship which lasts for about half a season, since it's just seen in 2-3 episodes. I always remember those two as breaking up after a couple of episodes. Maybe if they had done something more with the Troi/Worf romance and actually developed it thoughout S/7 I could see it as something more than a one-off thing. When I saw them together in AGT I was at first
, then I was thinking "Oh yeah... those two". If a relationship is just seen in 2-3 episodes, then it's pretty hard to take it seriously. Maybe that's what you mean by TNG type storytelling (which at least B'Elanna/Tom can't be blamed for).Finally, the TNG movies can't be used as an example of storytelling on the TNG television show.
Yeah, Janeway didn't get much character development, you've got a point there. Although she did get her fair share of story material. In terms of screen time and dialogue lines, Janeway far outshines all other Voyager characters. And together with Seven and B'Elanna, it's safe to say that Voyager is pretty balanced in how much screen time male and female characters get. TNG had both few female characters AND little screen time devoted to each female character. DS9 does have a couple of good female characters, but with an overwhelming cast of strong male characters they can't recieve as much attention as one would hope. For every Kira on DS9, there was an Odo, a Quark and Bashir. For Every Dax, there was a Sisko, Miles Obrien, Jake, Rom and Nog. For every Kai Winn there was a Dukat and Weyon.
On TNG, the only person with any major long-term character development and lasting character arcs is Worf. His klingon story arcs as well as his relationship with Keylahr and taking care of Alexander, are long-term stories that makes him reevalue his existence and grow. He finally comes to terms with his being klingon, and just as he is being accepted into the klingon culture, he has to take on the dishonor to save Q'onos from a civil war. That and taking care of Alexander are all inportant lessons that causes Worf to grow in meaningful ways.
Data also changes and grows throughout the show (just compare S1 Data with S7 Data), though it's less tangible than Worf. Unfortunately, too many of Data's lessons are things he has already forgotten about in the next episode. (Something which, at times, also Seven can be guilty of). And the emotion ship is never really used until the movies.
The rest of the TNG characters all have pretty much the same status in S7 as they do in the first seasons - and this on a federation starship in the alpha quadrant. Riker not getting his own ship after BoBW was in my opinion a huge cop-out by the writers/producers. Not following through with either Picard/Chrusher or Troi/Riker was another.
Voyager may not be DS9 in terms of character development, but at least they don't treat their female characters like TNG treats Chrusher and Troi (hell, Deanna almost gets more cahracter development on Voyager than she gets on TNG
).But in Voyager's favor, it does have 3 powerful female characters who together gets at least as much screen time as their male counterparts, and even recieves more character development (not that underdeveloped male characters is anything to applaud).
Okay. My bad. Maybe I should have said Voyager had a TNG 2.0 type writing style then. It was one step or notch just above TNG, but we still did not get nowhere near the level of character development like we did on DS9.
There are lots of references to the Riker/Troi backstory in TNG beyond the first two or five episodes. I guess you just need to be looking for it.
Well, I did say it was bollocks. Does that count?
Indeed, the original Star Trek outline famously (or infamously) described the Captain's Yeoman thus:
Except for a problem in naval parlance, J.M. Colt would be called a yeo-woman. With a strip-queen figure even a uniform cannot hide, Colt serves as Captain's secretary, reporter, bookkeeper -- and with surprising efficiency. She undoubtedly dreams of serving Robert April with equal efficiency in more personal departments.
“Strip-queen figure”??
Hey, it was 1964.
I think it's fairly important, if you are going to write an essay about gender in Star Trek, to watch a fair bit of Voyager, as Janeway is one of the most famous examples of a woman who has authority that is not derived by sacrificing her own femininity. Your own statement about 'male' attributes shows what a difficult balancing act this is given our cultural prejudices. I would recommend the following episodes:
Scorpion
Year of Hell
Counterpoint
as essentials, and the following as good data points:
Prime Factors
Resolutions
Tuvix
These are all episodes where Janeway is faced with an intractable problem and makes a choice and lives with the consequences of that choice. Voyager has more shitty episodes than most Trek shows, usually because decisions DON'T seem to have consequences, but these ones do. And if Voyager does have an arc, it is how Janeway goes from being someone who is not willing to sacrifice her 'Starfleet identity' to get her crew home, to someone who will sacrifice everything to get her crew home- even herself. This makes her possibly the most important female character in the Trek mythos (barring maybe Kira)- I'd suggest further study of her before writing your essay, if you've time. It's the reason Voyager is beloved by female Trek fans more than any other show- you'd be amazed how many shows have no female characters worth aspiring to.
Check out the original character description of Beverley Crusher if you can find it.
And in fact the female gender is the default gender - everybody has a X-chromasome. I still get annoyed when writers tell allegorical stories using insects and still use male-dominated hierarchies below the Queen - and those old Warner Brothers/Disney cartoons that show male bees stinging characters like Donald Duck! I've even seen cartoon where the character uses that age old classic of a 'female' puppet (with a 'strip-queen figure') to lure the 'male' bee into a trap. I know it's trivial but it's further evidence of a mind-set among writers.
The tide has started to turn though. We only had the Bionic Woman and Wonder Woman in the seventies. When Xena's popularity outstripped Hercules I think the producers woke up and the momentum helped give us Buffy, Alias, and more action shows with a female protagonist or a male/female double act.
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