Why Was Riker Demoted?

[Timo]

Then again, many ships were lost as well, meaning fewer command opportunities. Indeed, as we know of at least a few command-level officers successfully evacuating (or was Sisko the only one, thanks to divine protection?), there might be more captains than there are openings on ships for a while.

Who gets to choose? Kirk regretted choosing wrong, but did he ever really have a choice whether to accept a promotion? Riker had successfully turned down two commands already, and while the Drake circumstances are unknown and Riker perhaps accepted an equivalent job that made Starfleet happy, we know the Aries circumstances in detail. A retiring CO, Riker already selected as his replacement, a specialist sent to brief the new CO, demanding logistics in place to get Riker to this distant assignment... It was a done deal, and then Riker quoted "motivated self-interest" as his reason for saying no, and Picard said fine. I can't see Starfleet being happy with that.

Then again, there was no more Melbourne.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Herbert]

In The Best of Both Worlds, Riker is given a promotion to the rank of captain along with being put in command of the Enterprise following Picard's apparent loss to the Borg. Later, when Picard is recovered, he is put back in command of the Enterprise and Riker goes back to the rank of commander. My question is: Why?

I just watched this episode again last night. I imagine the reason is because the fleet was decimated by the Borg and there were no open captain's positions and there might not be any until Shelby rebuilt the fleet. Since you can't have two captains on one ship, Riker goes back to Commander.

A bigger question in my mind regarding that episode is why the Romulans and/or the Cardassians didn't take advantage of the Borg devastation and invade the Federation.

 

[JesterFace]

A bigger question in my mind regarding that episode is why the Romulans and/or the Cardassians didn't take advantage of the Borg devastation and invade the Federation.

Federation lost "only" 39 ships, I wonder how much more do they really have?

If the Federation was attacked the Klingons might have something to say about that.
Hanson did say that Klingons were sending ships to fight the Borg.
If someone else attacked the Federation Klingons might join the fight.

 

[JesterFace]

Didn't Picard get command of the Stargazer because the officers above him died?

Kor

Memory Alpha says that the captain of the Stargazer was killed and 1st officer was injured, Picard took over after that.
His actions were looked favourably by Starfleet command and he became a captain.

 

[Timo]

I gather there's no contradiction between Starfleet having a dozen Fleets each with hundreds of ships in DS9, and struggling to summon 40 ships in TNG. It's just a matter of time, of the ships being spread out in peacetime, having their hands full and more in sorting out the usual weekly Federation-endangering adventures.

The situation might have been the same for a long time, really. In DSC, Starfleet is said to be about 7,000 ships strong, but the NCC numbers only go up to 1700 or so. So, possibly 6,000+ support ships, less than a thousand NCC-registered potential combatants remaining in active service in the 2250s. And by the time of TNG, closer to ten thousand combatants, and thus perhaps seventy thousand ships overall, but now more of those warranting a NCC number (as those now indeed run to the 70,000s).

Also, if it is just barely possible to get two starships to the scene in the 23rd century, in the 24th it might be twenty, making forty a superhuman achievement indeed...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Memory Alpha says that the captain of the Stargazer was killed and 1st officer was injured, Picard took over after that.
His actions were looked favourably by Starfleet command and he became a captain.

Yup, in the actual onscreen material, we only know PIcard took over and at some point became a captain. We get no confirmation or contradiction of the idea that "at some point" would have been "on the spot". Might be Lieutenant Commander Picard was promoted to Captain and CO off the bat. Might be Ensign Picard earned enough brownie points that fifteen years later, he'd make Captain and CO at a somewhat early age.

TNG's adventures such as "BoBW" and "Gambit" give us starships coping with the apparent loss of the CO; TOS "Tholian Web", likewise. In every one of these, the situation is resolved and the original CO returns before we learn anything about the true method of succession; the next-in-line stepping in is just a temporary measure to allow for the ship to finish the mission.

...Except in "Gambit", where Riker is in fact given an all-new mission after Picard "dies", and told not to dwell on the loss. Starfleet essentially tells him to take over the ship for the time being even though there is no crisis or lack of communications or anything, but does not give him a fourth pip in the collar. Which is the really curious bit, unlike Data's later temporary assumption of command in the same episode, or Riker's hasty promotion after Wolf 359.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

Which - while backed up by most of canon (with the exception of select references from DS9 s3 onwards and TOS) - is totally bogus compared to modern day naval practice worldwide and causes more problems than it solves.

There is also the possiblity in 300 years Earth naval practises would have changed for a spacefleet, after all IRL 300 years ago there were no female sailors or officers

The whole "our entire senior staff is made up of captains and commanders" thing may have been an extreme aberration, made possible only by Kirk's influence and willingness to wield that influence to get his way. I can easily imagine higher-ups in Starfleet rolling their eyes every time they thought about it ...

I roll my eyes at the 'my entire staff served on the same ship in the same role for 30 years', the only ones who tried to get another life was McCoy and Spock in TMP, and that did not last very long

He figured Riker is just going to refuse a command anyways (like he did with 3 other ships) so why bother.

This is more likely

 

[XCV330]

I cannot think of a valid reason. After the loss of so many captains and First officers at Wolf 359, I would think he willingly accept his duty to Starfleet and command another ship. And I would expect Starfleet to not make it optional.

I posted elsewhere, they were at first VERY willing and nearly demanding he take command, but after his clone became a turncoat, they probably would have lost confidence in him. I would have, if I'd been in the admiralty, fair or not. Once the Maquis did not exist anymore and the reasons they had existed were gone, he was resonably safe to offer command again.

 

[Kor]

I cannot think of a valid reason. After the loss of so many captains and First officers at Wolf 359, I would think he willingly accept his duty to Starfleet and command another ship. And I would expect Starfleet to not make it optional.

Like the instructions Picard received regarding the Enterprise: "You are hereby requested and required to take command."

Kor

 

[Discofan]

I remember before Wesley went to the academy. Someone, I wanna say Geordi, said that it's possible that by the time he graduated Picard would no longer be the captain of the Enterprise. That means three or four years in the future. Captains it seems are not expected to keep the same ship for very long.

 

[Timo]

Or then Picard was going to get promoted soon, being advanced in career years and all. Only, him betraying mankind put that on hold!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

Or then Picard was going to get promoted soon, being advanced in career years and all. Only, him betraying mankind put that on hold!

Timo Saloniemi

When did he do that?

 

[XCV330]

I remember before Wesley went to the academy. Someone, I wanna say Geordi, said that it's possible that by the time he graduated Picard would no longer be the captain of the Enterprise. That means three or four years in the future. Captains it seems are not expected to keep the same ship for very long.

After Locutus, they didn't exactly have full faith in Picard, either, though they weren't going to bench him or demote him. He was a good captain and had his uses. Its easy to imagine both Enterprise D and E full of Starfleet Intel, Sec31 and assorted snitches all keeping tabs on Picard's behavior and mentality. When you have a borg in your midst, study them.

 

[Timo]

Between S3 and S4, obviously. If fellow Starfleet officers can barely refrain from murdering him ("Emissary"), I trust he's not at the top of the promotion list, especially if said promotion to flag rank will necessarily remove him from the far frontier and put him where he most stands to embarrass Starfleet.

Edit: Ninja'ed.

The novels also try and invent reasons for why Picard fails to get a promotion during the TNG movies. Seems like wasted effort: the former Locutus now has instigated an insurrection! It's rather a miracle they didn't send him to be brainwashed at Tantalus V, and quite inexcusable that he was allowed to continue in Starfleet.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

The Captain should outrank his first officer.

Should and invariably does. Even among service members holding the same grade, one will always outrank the others by seniority.

 

[Timo]

Which makes it a bit odd that Captain Ransom, who most probably was senior to Captain Janeway, so readily agreed that the relevant Starfleet regulation in their situation concerned the tactical pecking order of their respective commands rather than the outright seniority of the officers in question.

I wonder if there just might be real-world situations to compare to, with two ships making a chance meeting and agreeing to joint operations outside the direct influence of their superiors, but with the more senior CO in command of the weaker ship. (Might have to do with the senior CO being in command of the bigger ship, but said ship being damaged to inferiority. Back in the days of sail, the men probably would simply swap ships.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Which makes it a bit odd that Captain Ransom, who most probably was senior to Captain Janeway, so readily agreed that the relevant Starfleet regulation in their situation concerned the tactical pecking order of their respective commands rather than the outright seniority of the officers in question.

While the actor playing Ransom was older than Mulgrew, there was only 5-6 years in it, so given that Ransom is indicated as - like Janeway - having come up through the sciences, I don't think there's any particular reason to assume that he became a "captain" before she did, in fact given that he appears to have commanded only the Equinox whereas Janeway was on at least her second tour as a CO, the default assumption should probably be that Janeway has more "time in rank" than he does, not the other way around.

 

[Discofan]

I think it makes sense that the captain commanding the biggest ship, would be the one who's in charge. Say there are two captains in a situation like that, one has the Enterprise and the other something even smaller than the equinox, it wouldn't seem fair that the captain with the minuscule ship and crew (say 30 people) who'd be in charge of the 1000 people of Enterprise plus the big ass ship! Somehow that doesn't feel right. So the rule quoted by Janeway actually makes sense.

 

[Timo]

While the actor playing Ransom was older than Mulgrew, there was only 5-6 years in it, so given that Ransom is indicated as - like Janeway - having come up through the sciences, I don't think there's any particular reason to assume that he became a "captain" before she did, in fact given that he appears to have commanded only the Equinox whereas Janeway was on at least her second tour as a CO, the default assumption should probably be that Janeway has more "time in rank" than he does, not the other way around.

We know Ransom got his command and/or his fourth pip by relevaling that the Yridians still exist. Since Yridians appear in front of our heroes back in 2369 in "The Chase", without much comment, we get the late-end limit for his promotion. In turn, we learn of Janeway's fourth pip first in 2371 when she visits her future command in "Relativity", giving the early-end limit for her rank. And in "Shattered", another time-hopping adventure, she confirms she thinks of Voyager as her first command.

(There's mention of an earlier command of hers in "Revulsion", but it must have been modest for a mere Lieutenant to be able to dress her down for it - perhaps an away sortie of some kind for young Ensign Janeway? Not ship command, obviously.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

We know Ransom got his command and/or his fourth pip by relevaling that the Yridians still exist. Since Yridians appear in front of our heroes back in 2369 in "The Chase", without much comment, we get the late-end limit for his promotion. In turn, we learn of Janeway's fourth pip first in 2371 when she visits her future command in "Relativity", giving the early-end limit for her rank. And in "Shattered", another time-hopping adventure, she confirms she thinks of Voyager as her first command.

(There's mention of an earlier command of hers in "Revulsion", but it must have been modest for a mere Lieutenant to be able to dress her down for it - perhaps an away sortie of some kind for young Ensign Janeway? Not ship command, obviously.)

Timo Saloniemi

Be that as it may, Janeway quoted a Starfleet rule that says that the Captain with the biggest ship is the one in charge and as I said. For once it's a rule that makes sense. I don't care how long someone has been a Captain but if he got a tiny little ship, there has to be a reason! You don't give say the Enterprise to just anybody!

 

[Timo]

Then again, Pike approached Saru with "My ship is junk, I'll take yours, cuz I'm senior". That makes sense, too.

So when Janeway says "We will pool our resou-", Ransom might go "Yeah, yeah, and you get to advise from Astrometrics while I take your ship and my XO commands mine. I'm the elder brother, 'member?", and be within his rights. So why isn't there an argument over the issue at the very least?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

I think it makes sense that the captain commanding the biggest ship, would be the one who's in charge. Say there are two captains in a situation like that, one has the Enterprise and the other something even smaller than the equinox, it wouldn't seem fair that the captain with the minuscule ship and crew (say 30 people) who'd be in charge of the 1000 people of Enterprise plus the big ass ship! Somehow that doesn't feel right. So the rule quoted by Janeway actually makes sense.

It doesn't really make sense. More seniority equals more experience, which equals better situation evaluating and decision-making. It makes more sense that the small ships would be assigned junior captains and they would progress to bigger vessels as their experience and seniority increased. And if the junior officer is more qualified to command multiple ships than the senior officer, the senior probably shouldn't have their job at all.

This kind of situation is not that common in history, because navies have not been as reluctant to deploy flag officers on operating vessels as Starfleet seems to be. It was common for admirals to detach a couple of cruisers or destroyers to watch an area or something like that, but of course those would be similar vessels. In any case, the rule has always clear: The senior officer present is in charge and whatever ship they are aboard runs up a pennant so everyone knows it.

Another historical difference is that naval vessels don't use full captains to command every type of ship like Starfleet does, so in the world wars if say a cruiser was operating with two destroyers the senior officer would be obvious.

Just out of curiosity, I checked what command of the 1941 sink-the-Bismarck period Force H would have been like in 1941 if there was no admiral around to take charge. By seniority:

           ship                   commanding officer           date of seniority
--------------------------  ---------------------------------  -------------------

Rodney (battleship)         Capt. F. H. G. Dalrymple-Hamilton   1931 Dec 31
Ark Royal (carrier)         Capt. C. S. Holland                 1932 June 30
King George V (battleship)  Capt. W. R. Patterson               1933 June 30
Norfolk (cruiser)           Capt. A. J. L. Phillips             1934 Dec 31
Suffolk (cruiser)           Capt. R. M. Ellis                   1938 Dec 31

So more or less the captains of the bigger ships on the top and the smaller ships on the lower end of seniority.