Why Was Riker Demoted?

[Shamrock Holmes]

On the other hand, there isn't evidence to support this, either. Save for the ambiguous piece where emphasis is on this being early on; granted, we don't know when Janeway was born, but 2356 is the fixed date for this first meeting with Tuvok, and thus she's fifteen years the junior of her "Relativity" self.

Interesting... Fury suggests that they first met twenty years ago (at which point per Mosiac she was still a junior science officer or a cadet), and served on three starships together (and implies that they have been friends for most if not all of it), whereas Revulsion gives a figure of only nine years and suggests an initial antagonism, promoted either on Tuvok's own initative or (per Mosiac/Pathways) at the instigation of three members of the Admiralty (one of which was Necheyev who canonically has some history for this) and includes only two ships (Billings and Voyager) rather than three.

Theoretically, Spock is anti-command as late in the game as ST2:TWoK. Possibly he took steps to avoid being put in command before the fateful shuttle mission, and was as competent in this dodging as he is in everything else. Heck, perhaps "The Cage" is what soured the experience for him!

Certainly The Cage is the previous occassion that most springs to mind where he is in (temporary) command, and it wasn't exactly a positive experience.

Which is why it should be safe to assume Janeway did not outrank him. Back in 2356, this would appear natural.

Fair point, but see my note that there is conflicting evidence when the meeting took place, and the later date (c 2362) fits better with the overall evidence (chiefly, that while information from Mosaic/Pathways is necessary to confirm that it was a starship command as captain, she was specifically in charge of tactical drills and the like which is unlikely for a junior science officer's command.

 

[Timo]

The "discrepancy" between the 20 and 9 year references is pretty simple to walk around, given how the former refers explicitly to how long the two have known each other, while the latter refers to the time they have been close colleagues. It would not be particularly realistic to assume that a first meeting would result in immediate and lasting co-working, especially given what that meeting was like.

The two served together on three ships. At which point would Janeway start to outrank the eternal Lieutenant? On the Billings, she was Commander (or just possibly Lieutenant Commander), but on the Al-Batani, she already held the position of Chief Science Officer, as per "Caretaker" (despite apparently having started out there as a regular SO as per "Innocence"). Have we met a CSO with lower than Lt rank?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If we ignore the somewhat ambiguous information about "commands" (which is contradictory), and focus on the assignments, then a sensible career path is (Chief) Science Officer on the Al Batani ranked Ensign to Lieutenant... First Officer on the Billings (up to the rank of Commander, including an undefined period "in command")... then assignment to one to two other starships (most likely as Commanding Officer, though rank is uncertain) before being assigned as CO, Voyager.

While there is certainly precedence for the First Officer finishing an assignment after the CO is removed without immediately being promoted in rank, it's difficult (but not impossible) to imagine someone who was successful as "Acting Captain" not being promoted until two further reassignments after that point.

 

[Timo]

I'm still worried about complicating a relatively simple issue.

At a minimum, we could say we already know all about Janeway's starship career: we have three ship names, and Tuvok could have been there onboard Al-Batani already.

This is not quite satisfactory, though, as we don't want to delay Janeway's outer space adventures unduly, so she should be allowed to sail on the Al-Batani early on, with Tuvok only joining those nine years before "Revulsion". Even that condition can be met by saying Janeway got stuck on that one ship for a decade, but again, not so satisfactory...

Adding one or more ships after Al-Batani and before Billings is fine, then, even though we know of no names or service histories (by all means, take Taylor's Bonestell if need be!). But ships after Billings and before Voyager? Janeway can't be the CO since she says she wasn't. OTOH, a hop from XO to CO while swapping ships is fine and requires no in-between ship.

And "Acting Captain"? There's no such incident in Janeway's known history, is there?

(Basically, our only onscreen-prompted reason for believing in a post-Billings assignment is Neelix' failure to mention Billings when he speaks of Janeway's service history in "Live Fast". Perhaps we want to excuse the failure by saying that Al-Batani was the topmost on his list because Janeway returned to that ship right before Voyager. But not as CO or XO, since Neelix says Science Officer instead. And thus there probably wouldn't be a fourth pip there, either, not for a Science Officer. But Neelix' statement can be excused in a thousand other ways, too. Including Dala's [forehead] cleavage.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm still worried about complicating a relatively simple issue.

Fair enough, but IMO the simplest interpretation is that Janeway, regardless of a vague and sometimes contradictory service history, outranks Ransom because he was assigned to a small short-range science vessel tasked to routine operations whereas Janeway was put in charge of medium-sized long range vessel tasked with a politically sensitive mission.

And "Acting Captain"? There's no such incident in Janeway's known history, is there?

Not as such, however given that she joined Billings as a (Lieutenant) Commander, but later appears to have been "in command" (per Tuvok's dressing down), it's possible that she ended up taken over temporarily as Captain. Indeed the easiest way to reconcile Voyager being her "first command" is that she's now discounting previous temporary/"caretaker" assignments in favour of counting from her first long-term posting as Captain.

 

[Timo]

Ah, now you lost me - why would Tuvok's dressing down be associated with the Billings stint? This needlessly complicates the timeline, which puts the incident in the distant past but the ship in the recent past. Plus it still seems to hinge on a weird definition of "command", inconsistent with either RW practices or ST precedent: command is very seldom about being the CO of a vessel in either case.

(I guess Janeway could have gotten the bigger ship for being first to the rank, or for being TEH AWSOM!!!. Then again, we know Ransom actually got the rank for being TEH AWSOM!!!, which might mean he got it faster than usual, while Janeway wasn't stated to have been unusual.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Actually, you're right.

Her Billings stint (as a commander) appears to succeed - perhaps even relate to - the "dressing down incident" so regardless of how you define "command" - which is certainly synonymous with being the commanding officer (temporary or long-term) of a base, facility or field team* - therefore Janeway certainly wasn't a "captain-by-rank" at the time (though Worf, Dax and Piersall (from Second Sight) prove the temporary ship COs can be less than "captain-by-rank", and Sisko even proves that Commanders can be long-term COs of lesser ships.

*(definition from Wikipedia):
A command in military terminology is an organisational unit for which a military commander is responsible. A commander is normally specifically appointed to the role in order to provide a legal framework for the authority bestowed. Naval and military officers have legal authority by virtue of their officer's commission, but the specific responsibilities and privileges of command are derived from the publication of appointment.

The relevant definition of "command" according to the US Department of Defense is as follows:[1]


(DOD) 3. A unit or units, an organization, or an area under the command of one individual. Also called CMD. See also area command; combatant command; combatant command (command authority).

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Not that I really care that much but wasn’t this originally about Riker? Just an innocent query.

 

[Nyotarules]

Not that I really care that much but wasn’t this originally about Riker? Just an innocent query.

Answer to OP, he was an illogical career blocker. The End

 

[CDP]

That gets him a medal, not a Galaxy class.

And it was Data (not Riker) who came up with the solution.

True, but it was Riker's strategy at Wolf 359 that recovered Picard as Locutus, enabling data to work out how to defeat the Borg

 

[Timo]

Riker who?

...Sorry about that. Alas, Riker's career is pretty much an open book, with no contradictions of interest. Just a few questionable career choices. But if you defeat the Borg (or V'Ger or the Whale Probe or whatever), you are entitled to eccentric choices, I guess.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

Riker who?

...Sorry about that. Alas, Riker's career is pretty much an open book, with no contradictions of interest. Just a few questionable career choices. But if you defeat the Borg (or V'Ger or the Whale Probe or whatever), you are entitled to eccentric choices, I guess.

Timo Saloniemi

Data defeated the Borg. He told them to sleep and they self-destroyed!

 

[Timo]

And Spock defeated Nero. Kirk got the promotion; Spock got none.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

And Spock defeated Nero. Kirk got the promotion; Spock got none.

Timo Saloniemi

That's why some Vulcans need to be in Starfleet 50 years before they get promoted to lieutenant.

 

[Makarov]

Picard gave them the idea to implant the sleep command.

Riker's command got Picard back on board the ship.

 

[Timo]

...In a starship Jeffries built.

Ultimately, the CO gets the credit, or the blame. Riker would be the CO when asked whether he'd like a promotion, a double promotion with epaulets, a transfer, or a small moon to retire on. Picard at that point would be probed by a tag team of Betazoids, Vulcans and Letheans to establish the true depths of his betrayal, and the odds of him making enough of a recovery to stand trial.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

...In a starship Jeffries built.

Ultimately, the CO gets the credit, or the blame. Riker would be the CO when asked whether he'd like a promotion, a double promotion with epaulets, a transfer, or a small moon to retire on. Picard at that point would be probed by a tag team of Betazoids, Vulcans and Letheans to establish the true depths of his betrayal, and the odds of him making enough of a recovery to stand trial.

Timo Saloniemi

I don't if Letheans would be such a good idea. They tend to destroy the brains they probe.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

All this thread can make me think of:

 

[Amasov]

According to Wikipedia.

A battlefield promotion (or field promotion) is an advancement in military rank that occurs while deployed in combat.

In this case, the combat, in question, is the Borg incident obviously. Once said combat has ended, the one granted the field commission resumes their original duties. So, even if Picard wasn't rescued, there's every possibility that Riker would've returned to the rank of first officer once the battle was over.

So, if Riker was serious about staying aboard the Enterprise, then he shouldn't have rescued Picard at all. More than likely he would've been offered official promotion to captain the Enterprise.

 

[Prax]

Riker pretty much worshipped Picard. He would have never abandoned him for career ambition.