Why the hate for Disco?

[Agony_Boothb]

Indeed. Whenever I imagine the 32nd century that some fans seem to think we should have gotten with a massive Federation of several thousand members spanning five galaxies where life is an ever loving utopia and everyone's flying in mobile bases the size of a moon that's capable of a form of propulsion known as "sidewarp" I just get bored and glaze over. A reaction I did not have to Disco's 32nd century.

Yep and we've seen cultures much older than Federation that are either less advanced or on par with them technologically. The Dominion for example was around for either 2,000 or 10,000 years depending on who you ask. While their weapons and transporter tech was more advanced, it was stated their ships were slower and overall seemed indistinguishable from other 24th century tech. So if alien cultures who have been around for thousands of years can stagnate or advance in some ways but not others, why wouldn't that be the same for the Federation?

People also forget that trek tech advances based on the need of the plot. Need to shave some lightyears off Voyager's journey? Lets just invent a myriad of differently coloured space tunnels with cool names. Characters can't be beamed out because of some meaningless technobabble from a previous episode? Lets create some new meaningless technobabble to get around it.

Trek is at its best when it is focused on people and at its worst when it is focused on technology.

 

[fireproof78]

Trek is at its best when it is focused on people and at its worst when it is focused on technology.

I completely agree with this. As much as I think that Star Trek needs to change in some aspects, but some are still foundational, i.e. "The Human Adventure is just beginning."

 

[Amaris]

Yep and we've seen cultures much older than Federation that are either less advanced or on par with them technologically. The Dominion for example was around for either 2,000 or 10,000 years depending on who you ask. While their weapons and transporter tech was more advanced, it was stated their ships were slower and overall seemed indistinguishable from other 24th century tech. So if alien cultures who have been around for thousands of years can stagnate or advance in some ways but not others, why wouldn't that be the same for the Federation?

People also forget that trek tech advances based on the need of the plot. Need to shave some lightyears off Voyager's journey? Lets just invent a myriad of differently coloured space tunnels with cool names. Characters can't be beamed out because of some meaningless technobabble from a previous episode? Lets create some new meaningless technobabble to get around it.

Trek is at its best when it is focused on people and at its worst when it is focused on technology.

Same. Some of my favorite episodes were low on the technology aspect, and focused on the interpersonal relationships between the characters. For example, DS9's "Past Tense" two part episode is a very human focused story, one I find increasingly relevant, and is just great Trek, and the only actual technology side of it is the bits at the sides that explain how they got there and how they got back. The rest is the meat of the adventure itself, and I think it's all the better for it.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I completely agree with this. As much as I think that Star Trek needs to change in some aspects, but some are still foundational, i.e. "The Human Adventure is just beginning."

Yep the exploration of the human condition is the beating heart if Star Trek. The majority of trek during the Berman years forgot this (the outlier to that of course being DS9). The result being it has given some fans a skewed vision of what Trek should be about.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Same. Some of my favorite episodes were low on the technology aspect, and focused on the interpersonal relationships between the characters. For example, DS9's "Past Tense" two part episode is a very human focused story, one I find increasingly relevant, and is just great Trek, and the only actual technology side of it is the bits at the sides that explain how they got there and how they got back. The rest is the meat of the adventure itself, and I think it's all the better for it.

Agree. Most of my favourite episodes are character studies. The tech heavy episodes are ironically the ones i like to watch when i don't want to think.

 

[The Wormhole]

Yep the exploration of the human condition is the beating heart if Star Trek. The majority of trek during the Berman years forgot this (the outlier to that of course being DS9). The result being it has given some fans a skewed vision of what Trek should be about.

What would annoy me is when there were episodes with a perfectly suitable character storyline that had a sci-fi subplot sandwiched in because "it's a space show, brah." For example, TNG New Ground, a story about Alexander returning to the Enterprise and Worf having to adjust to being a father and juggling his work responsibilities with parenthood. Meanwhile the Enterprise takes part in trials for a new form of propulsion. The Worf and Alexander storyline could have been its own episode, and the story would have been all the better if it had. The audience could have gone just fine going without technobabble "space stuff" for one week.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

What would annoy me is when there were episodes with a perfectly suitable character storyline that had a sci-fi subplot sandwiched in because "it's a space show, brah." For example, TNG New Ground, a story about Alexander returning to the Enterprise and Worf having to adjust to being a father and juggling his work responsibilities with parenthood. Meanwhile the Enterprise takes part in trials for a new form of propulsion. The Worf and Alexander storyline could have been its own episode, and the story would have been all the better if it had. The audience could have gone just fine going without technobabble "space stuff" for one week.

Yeah the whole A/B Plot of 90's trek was annoying. It really showed how bland and tired a lot of the plots of 90's trek became where that they needed to have B plots with pregnant cats and neelix trying to get tuvok to eat his shitty food. By the tine of Voyager the writing became so by the numbers and solved by the tech of the week that they needed b plots to fill out 45 minutes. The only episode where i think the A/B style plotting really works is DS9's 'In the cards'.

 

[eschaton]

Yeah the whole A/B Plot of 90's trek was annoying. It really showed how bland and tired a lot of the plots of 90's trek became where that they needed to have B plots with pregnant cats and neelix trying to get tuvok to eat his shitty food. By the tine of Voyager the writing became so by the numbers and solved by the tech of the week that they needed b plots to fill out 45 minutes. The only episode where i think the A/B style plotting really works is DS9's 'In the cards'.

My understanding is the a/b structure was mostly to ensure the main cast all has something to do every week.

 

[Amaris]

Yeah the whole A/B Plot of 90's trek was annoying. It really showed how bland and tired a lot of the plots of 90's trek became where that they needed to have B plots with pregnant cats and neelix trying to get tuvok to eat his shitty food. By the tine of Voyager the writing became so by the numbers and solved by the tech of the week that they needed b plots to fill out 45 minutes. The only episode where i think the A/B style plotting really works is DS9's 'In the cards'.

This. I'm not a huge VOY fan, though there are some terrific episodes, and it all boils down to the characters. I care for the characters. I want Neelix to feel like he belongs, I want Seven to further find her true self inside, I want the Doctor to become a real boy, I want Harry Kim to get promoted maybe, I want Chakotay to actually do something meaningful and emotive, and so on.

I put up with the Treknobabble in TNG, it was diminished a little in DS9, but VOY just dialed it all the way up to 11, and again, my favorite VOY episodes are about the characters and less the technobabble. The less technobabble, the better.

 

[StarMan]

Im not telling a story they are. The show sucks. The writing is horrid.

The most basic critique I can level at Disco - and the most damning, so far as I'm concerned - is it's just boring.

If that's how you feel Pubes, just switch it off. 5 seasons of Kurtzman Trek is more than enough feedback to confirm this isn't for me anymore. I know it sucks. I've enjoyed Trek for 25+ years in all it's incarnations up until now - TOS, TNG, DS9 ... even the weaker entries had their bright spots. (That said, I'd loathe a return to a more Berman-esque Trek. That shit hasn't aged particularly well. Funnily enough, if I were to put a random episode of Trek on nowadays, it'd be TOS.)

With Disco ... there's just nothing to hang my hat on. How realistic is it that with the current stable of "talent" behind the scenes there's going to be a hard pivot to anything that would seriously hold my interest? Stuff all.

But hey, there's no shortage of quality TV out there to scratch my entertainment itch. So, who cares? Keep an eye on it - one day it might surprise. Just don't hold your breath. Best knock it off it's pedestal and approach it as you would any other piece of entertainment, rather than getting yourself tied up in knots that TPTB aren't delivering for you personally - you'll never win.

 

[Amaris]

The most basic critique I can level at Disco - and the most damning, so far as I'm concerned - is it's just boring.

If that's how you feel Pubes, just switch it off. 5 seasons of Kurtzman Trek is more than enough feedback to confirm this isn't for me anymore. I know it sucks. I've enjoyed Trek for 25+ years in all it's incarnations up until now - TOS, TNG, DS9 ... even the weaker entries had their bright spots. (That said, I'd loathe a return to a more Berman-esque Trek. That shit hasn't aged particularly well. Funnily enough, if I were to put a random episode of Trek on nowadays, it'd be TOS.)

With Disco ... there's just nothing to hang my hat on. How realistic is it that with the current stable of "talent" behind the scenes there's going to be a hard pivot to anything that would seriously hold my interest? Stuff all.

But hey, there's no shortage of quality TV out there to scratch my entertainment itch. So, who cares? Keep an eye on it - one day it might surprise. Just don't hold your breath. Best knock it off it's pedestal and approach it as you would any other piece of entertainment, rather than getting yourself tied up in knots that TPTB aren't delivering for you personally - you'll never win.

Essentially this. I've never understood hate watching. Life is short, and there are so many better entertainment options out there. Yeah, it's not the Star Trek some folks want, and that's okay, not everyone's going to like the new style and approach. There are 700+ non-Disco style Star Trek episodes out there if there's a Trek itch that needs scratched.

 

[Yistaan]

Yeah the whole A/B Plot of 90's trek was annoying.

My understanding is the a/b structure was mostly to ensure the main cast all has something to do every week.

Agreed that the a/b structure kept character screen time well rounded. What we're seeing now in Discovery is what happens when the a/b structure is abandoned. Rhys, Bryce, Owo, Detmer, and Nilsson are basically prop characters. That's to the detriment of the show, not its benefit.

We need the a/b structure back so we can see more of the characters I just mentioned on Discovery.

 

[dupersuper]

There was also that very dumb holodeck scene (full of bad science, like calling Eryops the common ancestor of mammals and dinosaurs, and having a CGI creature more like Dimetrodon with no sail) where they extrapolated the evolution of a Hadrosaur after another 65 million years of evolution. This seemed to imply that the ancestors of the Voth were still Hadrosaurs at the time of K/T, and had considerably changed since this time.

Just add it to Threshold and Dear Doctor in the "Trek doesn't know what evolution is" pile.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

This question could be applied to every Trek show, had TrekBBS or similar sites been on the go when they were released:
TAS - The animation is crap
TNG - It's not TOS
DS9 - It's too dark
VOY - It's TNG-lite
ENT - Too advanced for pre-TOS

And so on. Discovery is the first Trek show of the modern TV era, which means that things have to change to draw in new audiences and appeal to what people expect, though this causes a rather substantial tonal shift that could've been handled better by the PTB but as it is then of course it was always going to be divisive (the JJTrek movies already proved that).

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Agreed that the a/b structure kept character screen time well rounded. What we're seeing now in Discovery is what happens when the a/b structure is abandoned. Rhys, Bryce, Owo, Detmer, and Nilsson are basically prop characters. That's to the detriment of the show, not its benefit.

We need the a/b structure back so we can see more of the characters I just mentioned on Discovery.

We actually don't. You don't need to have A plot: Burnham, Saru and Culber get stuck on an alien planet and B plot: Detmer and Owo try to figure out Stamet's favourite cake for his birthday for these characters to be fleshed out. The answer is to include them more in the main plot. Like what was done in 'That hope is you pt 2' where they helped Burnham save the ship.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

No, we actually need entire episodes dedicated to these characters, so that DSC runs the risk of getting viewers invested in them over the long term at the cost of losing that bit of audience interested in seasonal conspiracies culminating in near-destruction of life as we know it and/or the universe itself.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Or just do spin-offs like Frasier, and DSC can be Cheers.

Star Trek: Culber. Eight episodes (for starters), set in early 2255.

 

[fireproof78]

But hey, there's no shortage of quality TV out there to scratch my entertainment itch. So, who cares? Keep an eye on it - one day it might surprise. Just don't hold your breath. Best knock it off it's pedestal and approach it as you would any other piece of entertainment, rather than getting yourself tied up in knots that TPTB aren't delivering for you personally - you'll never win.

Exactly.

I'll add TPTB don't owe me anything personally. They are making their show. If isn't for me no amount of brand loyalty will change that.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I will say about Disco, a recurring theme is "The journey is awesome, the destination is dumb".

Ending the Klingon war by giving a Klingon ability to blow up the planet was dumb.

Spoiler

Having the Burn caused by a grieving child yelling was dumb.

But the journey getting there was done pretty damn well, and introduced some excellent characters.

If Disco secondary cast are prop characters so were anyone in TOS but the big three.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

If Disco secondary cast are prop characters so were anyone in TOS but the big three.

Nope. Even Janice Rand has quite a bit to do in Season 1. DSC bridge crew are more like Kyle or Leslie, only with permanent, publicized roles that nevertheless dare not be expanded upon.