Why the hate for Disco?

[dupersuper]

Okay. And just to admit everything, I loathe the nuTrek movies (other than one line, which was clever and sufficiently Spockian that I can easily imagine Nimoy saying it if it had ever been part of the dialogue of a TOS episode or movie).

Please share.

I’ll take action/adventure Trek over conference room / moralizing Trek any day. I’m one of those guys who shrugs at both “Measure of a Man” and “Duet”.

*muttering to myself* IDIC, IDIC, IDIC, IDIC, IDIC, IDIC, IDIC...

The most obvious one is, if memory serves, "The Neutral Zone" - the one in which the three cryogenically frozen 20th century people were found, revived, and Picard threw a snit because of the inconvenience of Crusher having bothered to wake them and cure the ailments that had killed them. He figured they were already dead, so why bother using 24th-century medical knowledge to save them?

As @Timewalker notes "The Neutral Zone" is the primary offender with the rest just having an air of just being better than past humanity

Yeah, I always hated that, but just chalked it up to horrible writing. It didn't fit with Picards love of archeology, history, ancient literature and philosophy...

That said, with most* of Marvel's things I can follow the action. I had to revisit Infinity War/Endgame more times than I like to really get a sense of characters. But, honestly, just knowing characters like Captain America or Thor is helpful because they are anchor points for me to gravitate towards. I certainly cannot recommend all the MCU, but here is a favorite moment from Endgame:

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I love it because I know the characters of Captain America and Thor ( I couldn't give a about Thanos). Seeing Cap in action makes the whole thing worthwhile, and even when it turns in to a melee letter Cap is still that ground point.

It also pays off a quieter character moment from Age of Ultron, and makes use of Cap knowing how to use the hammer and shield together because of his very first meeting with Thor in the first Avengers movie.

Combat can reflect character. But the big issue with combat in most of the MCU (and modern action movies in general) is there really aren't any real stakes to combat. Infinity War set aside, heroic characters almost never lose (meaning get their asses beat but live to fight another day).

Super heroes winning their battles is hardly a new phenomenon...

I think anyone who doesn't find the scene with Sahil at the end of "That Hope Is You, Part I" inspirational is either a liar, has a very different definition of what "inspirational" means, or is not actually paying attention to what they're watching. Especially as they lower the Federation flag.

I'm no big Discovery fan, but I'll give you that one.

EDIT: Although, IIRC, there was a difference between how Americans reacted to that scene and how those from other countries reacted. So it might also be a regional thing.

I'm Canadian and I was into it. Then again, I consider the Federation flag far more mine than any real life countries flag...

 

[Timewalker]

Please share.

His answer to nuPike's query about attitude: "I am expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously, sir. To which are you referring?"

That's something that movie-era Spock might have said after he finally accepted the fact that he has emotions and can, in fact, choose how to express them without losing his Vulcan sense of dignity. Nimoy would have stressed the second sentence differently (I just watched a clip to refresh my memory), but I think the words would have fit.

And that's the sum total of good lines I found in all three nuTrek movies.

Yeah, I always hated that, but just chalked it up to horrible writing. It didn't fit with Picards love of archeology, history, ancient literature and philosophy...

For Picard, the nice thing about archaeology, history, ancient literature, and philosophy is that he doesn't actually have to talk to the people who created the artifacts, writing, or thoughts that he's studying. He gets to do it from the sterile environment of his ready room or quarters or holodeck, while making pompous and self-congratulatory speeches to Riker and Data.

I'm Canadian and I was into it. Then again, I consider the Federation flag far more mine than any real life countries flag...

Yeah, we generally aren't into flag-worship in Canada. We give it due respect on Canada Day and Remembrance Day, and set it aside the rest of the year.

 

[dupersuper]

For Picard, the nice thing about archaeology, history, ancient literature, and philosophy is that he doesn't actually have to talk to the people who created the artifacts, writing, or thoughts that he's studying. He gets to do it from the sterile environment of his ready room or quarters or holodeck, while making pompous and self-congratulatory speeches to Riker and Data.

I just don't get that impression of him outside of that horribly bit of writing.

 

[Worf factor9]

Better "try hard" than "not try at all".

Theodore "never call me Teddy" was far from perfect, but the original thought remains true.

 

[Worf factor9]

Sure, they will make 1001 excuses and rationalizations as to why they keep watching, but at the end of the day, the truth is they really DO enjoy it.

If ya' got nothing to "complain " about what's the point?

 

[Worf factor9]

I think he means the wide use of "shaky cam."

It's The Blair Witch filming syndrome.

 

[Lord Garth]

Theodore "never call me Teddy" was far from perfect, but the original thought remains true.

Too bad I can only like this post once.

He's my third favorite President, behind Lincoln and Washington. In that order.

 

[Worf factor9]

Too bad I can only like this post once.

He's my third favorite President, behind Lincoln and Washington. In that order.

They all three--and too many others to count-- had many, many faults.

All we can do is go Boldly, and hope we can learn from previous mistakes. Engage.

 

[Worf factor9]

I enjoy dry wit.

As do I.

 

[fireproof78]

If ya' got nothing to "complain " about what's the point?

Enjoyment.

I know. I was just as surprised as you were.

 

[Vger23]

A lot of interesting points here to unpack and respond to.

Regarding the hate for Disco.

There are no redshirts.

Agree entirely. This is a miss on so many levels!

Or are the redshirts the bridge crew? We really don't know or care for them. Other shows, I would have known their character and actor names. Disco? Nope.

The bridge crew are background players on this show...and are not meant to be well-known or well-developed. It's part of the different format and formula that DSC has engaged in, rather than the same old- same old template of the bridge crew being all the primary characters. It's intentional to have them as backgrounds. They're the DSC version of Mr. Kyle and Mr. Leslie.

It's serialized vs. episodic. There is too much waiting between episodes wrapping up a story. We don't feel as much of a part of it.
It's not teaching us morals on a weekly basis. It's flash bang action, that applies to the JJverse too.

I'm a much bigger fan of serialized / arc driven television these days. Episodic does very little for me. I just can't care enough about individualized, contained stories with no true lasing impacts to the characters or the overall condition of the format.

Yes, I think this is a far more dynamic and kinetic show than the previous Treks...but this is television of a new era. I also don't really care for Star Trek "teaching morals on a weekly basis." If you mean that there's no thought-provoking material, and that the action overshadows that....I'd disagree. But, I think that's a preference thing. I do think DSC's way of exploring ideas is more subtle and less ham-fisted than Trek has been in the past (well...in some cases), and it's often done through the characters rather than the plot.

I have yet to binge and rewatch season 3 and then maybe the good parts will standout. I don't recall these episodes or scenes like I do with "The Omega Glory", "A Private Little War" or "The Doomsday Machine". I can probably name a TOS episode in seconds when it comes on. I can quote most of the lines in the TOS movies before they are said.

In fairlness, TOS has had 55 years to imprint itself in our consciousness and culture. DSC Season 3 is less than a year old. I don't think that's a fair comparison at all.

Book is probably one of the more inspirational characters or at least new characters. He just does what he sees is right. I have seen that in Saru as well. I guess I would say they are my favorites.
.

I think it's a pretty high bar to expect every character on a show to be to our liking. I think GoT is a great show...and I probably like about 30% of the characters. Different characters are set to appeal to different target audiences these days. I really like TNG, but I really only "truly" resonate with the characters of Riker, Troi and maybe Worf. Geordi, Data and Picard were "meh" (although the new series has me appreciating Picard a ton more because it humanizes him). Crusher I thought was worse than a wet, cold blanket on a winter day. Yar was weak as well.

Good discussion all around.

 

[fireproof78]

In fairlness, TOS has had 55 years to imprint itself in our consciousness and culture. DSC Season 3 is less than a year old. I don't think that's a fair comparison at all.

I think that's why I set my expectations differently. It's not like DSC production crew have the 50 years of Star Trek experience to nail the most inspirational Star Trek of all time. They have their own stories to tell. And TOS is that go to Star Trek look in public consciousness. That much is clear based on the magazines I see out. They highlight Kirk and Co. But, Discovery is expected to live up to a 50 year old legacy after 3 years?

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Yes, I think this is a far more dynamic and kinetic show than the previous Treks...but this is television of a new era. I also don't really care for Star Trek "teaching morals on a weekly basis." If you mean that there's no thought-provoking material, and that the action overshadows that....I'd disagree. But, I think that's a preference thing. I do think DSC's way of exploring ideas is more subtle and less ham-fisted than Trek has been in the past (well...in some cases), and it's often done through the characters rather than the plot.

The bit I find really don't like and this isn't just about Discovery but Hollywood in general at the moment is how much do you change before it's better to start new.
If you don't like episodic monster of the week exploration, don't like exploring the wider crew, don't like ship porn and don't like moralizing then why make a Trek show at all. Why not make a new show.

It's just piggybacking on a name

 

[fireproof78]

My counter question to that is is Star Trek limited to just those elements?

 

[yotsuya]

Maybe you didn't hear but, at the end of the second season, DSC jumped to the 32nd Century. They've said DSC will take place there the rest of its run. So your complaints only apply to the first two seasons.

What are your issues with the third season?

Lack of interest in finishing the 2nd season.

 

[Lord Garth]

Lack of interest in finishing the 2nd season.

"Well, now you know and knowing is half the battle."

 

[yotsuya]

Elephant in the Room: I notice there are a lot of people on the board who aren't TOS Fans per se, but they see TOS as an institution to be revered. So any change to the era is an assault on the very fabric of Star Trek, to them.

Whereas I actually am a fan of TOS. It's an actual show, that I actually watched, and I actually like. It's not an institution, it's not to be revered, it's to be enjoyed. To quote William Shatner, "It's just a TV show!"

I posted this in another thread in the GTD Forum, but I might as well re-type it here: How can I be such a big TOS Fan and not have a problem with the changes DSC made or soon SNW will make? Simple, I view it as three timelines. I'm one of those fans who subscribes to the Three Timeline Theory.

I view it as:
The Classic Timeline
The Prime Timeline
The Kelvin Timeline

How much effect do DSC, SNW, the Kelvin Films, or even ENT for that matter, have on my enjoyment of TOS? None whatsoever. How much effect does it have on how I view any of TOS? Zero.

When I watch TOS, I don't think about Discovery at all.

Most people who go with the Three Timeline Theory say the change happened after FC, when the Borg went back in time and the Enterprise-E had to stop them. That led to ENT, and then the Kelvin in 2233, and then DSC. I like to make it simpler than that. To me, in the Prime Timeline (which DSC is advertised as), the mid-23rd Century looks like DSC's first two seasons and SNW. In the Classic Timeline, the mid-23rd Century looks like TOS. In every other time-period, there's no difference between the Classic Timeline and the Prime Timeline. So, in everything that takes place from TMP on, you're not going to notice the difference 99% of the time.

If you want to make something work for you, then you'll find a way to make it work. And if you don't...

That is almost how I look at it. I don't think TOS needs to be held up as an unalterable artifact. But I think Discovery went too far. Discovery is a reboot and as a reboot I have a couple issues with it, but it is alright, just not for me. SNW will be in the same timeline, but I hope to see good things from it and I will treat it as a reboot of the Pike Years. I think In A Mirror Darkly updated the TOS Defiant in good ways and they could go even a step further without getting too far. And it isn't like Trials and Tibbleations got everything 100% correct. A good job for the time, but not perfect. And they updated the 3 models they used, adding little details that would be missed on screen, but clearly make the models more detailed than the originals. And then there is the remastered vs. original FX. They did a fair job, but they didn't stick very close to the original shots or models. At the same time, TOS itself used at least 4 completely different models for the Enterprise, none of which match when you look closely. So I didn't expect and exact duplicate of the model in the Smithsonian, restored to how it appeared in The Cage to be in Discovery, but what we got was about the opposite extreme - about as different as it could be with as many changes as could conceivably be made and still hint at the original design.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess it will depend on what one wants from a reboot.

 

[Worf factor9]

I guess it will depend on what one wants from a reboot.

As the old Rolling Stones song goes, "Ya Cain't Always Get What cha Want"

 

[fireproof78]

As the old Rolling Stones song goes, "Ya Cain't Always Get What cha Want"

I haven't gotten hat I wanted in a long time. I don't even order my own food any more.

Where did I go wrong? Where!?

Oh, right, Star Trek. Yup, reboots are an unpredictable thing.