Why the hate for Disco?

[Vger23]

My only real frustration is when Discovery is treated as not a part of Star Trek, that it has to earn the right to be real Star trek. Beyond that, it's all in good discussion. If people don't like it, cool, fine and I wish you peace and long life. But, I'll always struggle with the idea of continuing to watch something because it's a part of a franchise. That's just my view of it. Others really like watching Star Trek even if there is no real enjoyment or frustration, apparently.

If that is gatekeeping then I apologize. I just want people to watch stuff that they like.

I have found that there are a lot of people here that enjoy watching something they don't particularly like almost as much (if not more than) things they do like. It's apparently a lot more fun to be angry, vocal, and disgruntled about something than it is to just watch and be happy (and I mean that, I'm not speaking with sarcasm).

Sure, they will make 1001 excuses and rationalizations as to why they keep watching, but at the end of the day, the truth is they really DO enjoy it. They just enjoy it for very very different reasons than we do.

 

[Jadeb]

When I watch TOS, I don't think about Discovery at all.

Same here. I’m more of a TOS fan than a Star Trek: The Franchise fan, really. At this point, I think there’s more bad than good material that has gone out under the Trek banner. That began well before streaming Trek, and nothing Discovery has done or will do can ever affect my fondness for TOS, or reduce its importance in the science fiction pantheon.

At the same time, I do think of TOS when watching Discovery. I think my disappointment with the first season was magnified because Discovery hitched its wagon so closely to TOS and then gave us something unexpectedly ugly (for Trek) and far removed from the original series. For a while, it was the only Trek available, and looked to be the template going forward. I didn’t like that, and it colored my perception of the show. I wouldn’t have loved Discovery even without the Spock connection or TOS proximity, but I might have been more willing to shrug and let it be what it was, as I have with a lot of later Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

I have found that there are a lot of people here that enjoy watching something they don't particularly like almost as much (if not more than) things they do like. It's apparently a lot more fun to be angry, vocal, and disgruntled about something than it is to just watch and be happy (and I mean that, I'm not speaking with sarcasm).

Sure, they will make 1001 excuses and rationalizations as to why they keep watching, but at the end of the day, the truth is they really DO enjoy it. They just enjoy it for very very different reasons than we do.

And I try really hard to keep that in mind. But, it is a mindset that is so far removed from my own that it strains the brain at times.

TOS will always be my Trek and there were times when I was mocked for liking it instead of TNG. I would do well to remember that.

 

[Lord Garth]

One last piece about continuity, then I'm done with this angle. I think the Temporal War was probably Star Trek's version of Crisis on Infinite Earths. If anyone here is familiar with DC Comics.

Similarly, if anyone reading is a DC Fan, here's something for you: I think of what I called the "Classic Timeline" of Star Trek as being like DC's "Earth 2" and the Prime Timeline as "Earth 1". Within a year after DSC premiered, I eventually came to this conclusion and thought, "Oh yeah! This is just like that!" Beforehand, I was just suspending my disbelief. But I know "suspension of disbelief" doesn't work on an internet bulletin board, so this was my work-around if I ever needed it in a thread.

 

[fireproof78]

One last piece about continuity, then I'm done with this angle. I think the Temporal War was probably Star Trek's version of Crisis on Infinite Earths. If anyone here is familiar with DC Comics.

Similarly, if anyone reading is a DC Fan, here's something for you: I think of what I called the "Classic Timeline" of Star Trek as being like DC's "Earth 2" and the Prime Timeline as "Earth 1". Within a year after DSC premiered, I eventually came to this conclusion and thought, "Oh yeah! This is just like that!" Beforehand, I was just suspending my disbelief. But I know "suspension of disbelief" doesn't work on an internet bulletin board, so this was my work-around if I ever needed it in a thread.

That's kind of my view, though I adopted that with the whole "Parallels" episode. And, really the idea of multiple timelines was really around since the Mirror Universe and Lazarus. We just didn't say "Oh, this is why!"

But, then, I don't overthink things like I use to.

 

[Robert April]

The MCU has taken completely obscure comic characters from the depths of their catalog and made blockbuster movies of them.

Nobody knew who Peter Quill was, he didn't have much, if any, pop culture iconography before GOTG, certainly not as much as Kirk and Spock. He doesn't have a recognizable costume either that I'm aware of.

I don't think the vast majority of the kids watching these MCU movies ever read comic books or know much about Marvel until they saw the MCU.

I never cared about Captain America, until the recent Marvel movies and I grew up in the '70s and '80s. It would be really cool to see an origin movie for McCoy, Scotty, and others. If they were to reboot the Next Generation, they really should take this approach.

 

[Robert April]

Regarding the hate for Disco.

There are no redshirts.
Or are the redshirts the bridge crew? We really don't know or care for them. Other shows, I would have known their character and actor names. Disco? Nope.
It's serialized vs. episodic. There is too much waiting between episodes wrapping up a story. We don't feel as much of a part of it.
It's not teaching us morals on a weekly basis. It's flash bang action, that applies to the JJverse too.

It's cool sci-fi on a trek, but when canon doesn't align it's "not my Star Trek".

Personally, I still watch and enjoy and hope for the best. I like parts and dislike parts, probably similar to previous series.

 

[fireproof78]

Personally, I still watch and enjoy and hope for the best. I like parts and dislike parts, probably similar to previous series.

Which is all can really do.

Also, I might be controversial on this but do shows need to teach morals? Aren't we old enough to not need the "More you know; and knowing is half the battle " Saturday morning cartoon morality being explained like we are 5?

 

[Robert April]

Which is all can really do.

Also, I might be controversial on this but do shows need to teach morals? Aren't we old enough to not need the "More you know; and knowing is half the battle " Saturday morning cartoon morality being explained like we are 5?

I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be morals being taught. It could be something that makes us think. What would I do in that situation, what would we do today if that were us. That technology we just encountered was cool or dangerous. Disco and Lower Decks feel like flashy entertainment and it's over, we move on. Picard might have been a little more like what I'm talking about but that may only be because we have a baseline from TNG to compare it to. Is this new Trek as inspiring as the old?

 

[fireproof78]

this new Trek as inspiring as the old?

Not sure how one can measure that. When I think inspirational Trek its TOS, occasionally DS9. For me, Discovery is more thought provoking on a character level. I'm always hesitant to compare the two because the approach feels different.

 

[Lord Garth]

Is this new Trek as inspiring as the old?

I think anyone who doesn't find the scene with Sahil at the end of "That Hope Is You, Part I" inspirational is either a liar, has a very different definition of what "inspirational" means, or is not actually paying attention to what they're watching. Especially as they lower the Federation flag.

EDIT: Although, IIRC, there was a difference between how Americans reacted to that scene and how those from other countries reacted. So it might also be a regional thing.

 

[eschaton]

I haven't seen the second season of The Orville, but I thought it was supposed to be more serious and less of a comedy? Not that I thought the first season was much of a comedy. Sometimes they played it a little silly, and sometimes there was humor that really wasn't my style, but it played like standard second-generation Trek a lot of the time. Which made that type of humor not look like it fit. I call it "TNG for Dude-Bros".

The second season was definitely much darker overall - yet at the same time focused almost exclusively on "Character focus" episodes, and relies less on sci-fi plot devices.

I do not understand any of this supposed approach. If it is "try hard" then it needs to try harder for me to feel impressed. Because, to me, it just is. Most of the time it is enjoyable and sometimes I roll my eyes. But, I am not impressed, nor do I expect it to impress me.

I think he means the wide use of "shaky cam." I mean, it's one thing to have that during an action scene - this is quite common. But Discovery moves the camera around like crazy even during dialog scenes, and sometimes does 360-degree rotations - or starts a shot upside down - for no particular reason.

I am not sure it's a choice of the individual directors, but I also think the music is mixed too high and used too much. It's gotten to be less of an issue, but in the first two seasons when I watched on the bus I needed to use captions, because I literally couldn't hear the dialogue even wearing headphones. IMHO quiet, contemplative character scenes should just have that engine hum in the background and nothing else.

On a side note, I feel Star Trek Beyond is completely on par with the MCU movies in terms of tone, action, writing, and production quality. I don't see how any kid who likes the MCU movies wouldn't like Beyond, but for whatever reason it's not as popular as the Marvel stuff.

Beyond reminded me more of a James Bond movie than anything. Even had the inexplicable motorcycle scene.

 

[fireproof78]

I think he means the wide use of "shaky cam." I mean, it's one thing to have that during an action scene - this is quite common. But Discovery moves the camera around like crazy even during dialog scenes, and sometimes does 360-degree rotations - or starts a shot upside down - for no particular reason.

Yeah, it's got to try harder for me.

I think anyone who doesn't find the scene with Sahil at the end of "That Hope Is You, Part I" inspirational is either a liar, has a very different definition of what "inspirational" means, or is not actually paying attention to what they're watching. Especially as they lower the Federation flag.

EDIT: Although, IIRC, there was a difference between how Americans reacted to that scene and how those from other countries reacted. So it might also be a regional thing.

Which is why I hesitate to call it inspirational, because what is inspirational for me won't be for you or the Trek fan across the globe. I find 09 one of the more inspirational stories in Trek. Sarek's speech with Spock and Spock Prime's speech with Kirk are powerful, moving, fatherly moments that I love. But, not finds it that way.

Same with Discovery. Burnham's struggle with trauma is one that I find so familiar in terms of the psychology, what people have gone through that I help, it's genuinely always touching to see her push forward knowing what trauma was there.

 

[Robert April]

I think anyone who doesn't find the scene with Sahil at the end of "That Hope Is You, Part I" inspirational is either a liar, has a very different definition of what "inspirational" means, or is not actually paying attention to what they're watching. Especially as they lower the Federation flag.

EDIT: Although, IIRC, there was a difference between how Americans reacted to that scene and how those from other countries reacted. So it might also be a regional thing.

I have yet to binge and rewatch season 3 and then maybe the good parts will standout. I don't recall these episodes or scenes like I do with "The Omega Glory", "A Private Little War" or "The Doomsday Machine". I can probably name a TOS episode in seconds when it comes on. I can quote most of the lines in the TOS movies before they are said.

To your point though, now that I looked up the episode I recall who you're talking about and that is a moving episode. He displays more of what the Federation stands for than what Starfleet HQ does.

Book is probably one of the more inspirational characters or at least new characters. He just does what he sees is right. I have seen that in Saru as well. I guess I would say they are my favorites.

I will have to add that the comedy with Jett Reno is way better than all of season 1 of Lower Decks combined. THAT is the kind of show Lower Decks should be.

 

[fireproof78]

Sarcastic and an hole? I thought Mariner had that down?

 

[Robert April]

Sarcastic and an hole? I thought Mariner had that down?

Haha, Jett delivers it dry and unexpected. Mariner is just a constant flow. The only surprise with Mariner is when she's serious.

 

[fireproof78]

Haha, Jett delivers it dry and unexpected. Mariner is just a constant flow. The only surprise with Mariner is when she's serious.

Ah. Well, I enjoy dry wit. Just not Jett.

Mariner is more enjoyable.

Mileage, etc.

 

[Robert April]

Ah. Well, I enjoy dry wit. Just not Jett.

Mariner is more enjoyable.

Mileage, etc.

No worries. My opinions may change with rewatch(es) and/or with time. Not many season ones started out as good as they finished. On the other hand, sequels are rarely as good as the first

 

[fireproof78]

No worries. My opinions may change with rewatch(es) and/or with time. Not many season ones started out as good as they finished. On the other hand, sequels are rarely as good as the first

Which is why i don't expect a sequel to be good. Just good enough

 

[David Hanley]

I have yet to binge and rewatch season 3 and then maybe the good parts will standout. I don't recall these episodes or scenes like I do with "The Omega Glory", "A Private Little War" or "The Doomsday Machine". I can probably name a TOS episode in seconds when it comes on. I can quote most of the lines in the TOS movies before they are said.

To your point though, now that I looked up the episode I recall who you're talking about and that is a moving episode. He displays more of what the Federation stands for than what Starfleet HQ does.

Book is probably one of the more inspirational characters or at least new characters. He just does what he sees is right. I have seen that in Saru as well. I guess I would say they are my favorites.

I will have to add that the comedy with Jett Reno is way better than all of season 1 of Lower Decks combined. THAT is the kind of show Lower Decks should be.

I think there has been some of those thinker episodes. Series 4 will challenge that aspect of things. There is some clearly big "thinking" options to persue here, it will be interesting to see if they do. Some of the things I am thinking of are:

- Re-integration of Earth (or not), could be a real opportunity to put up a mirror to modern day isolationist politics and get people thinking
- Onboarding new Federation members - there could be some big morality questions challenged here in an episodic manner.
- AI - how they manage the sphere data, how it grows and develops as a "character". Again should get people thinking about what we want from AI back here in the 21st century.

All that before we meet the next baddie. Looking forward to S4 already!