Why the hate for Disco?

[Guy Gardener]

So I was like 3 years old, and there were these two incredibly cool teenage girls that would look after me, sisters, but they didn't think as much of each other as I did, this is one of my earliest memories, I was with one of them, Susan I think, and we were in her sisters bedroom, and she points at the Abba poster on the wardrobe door, and she says "They suck. No one cool likes those assholes."

 

[Worf factor9]

"STD Sucks!"

Damned Right it does. I Never again want one of those tests up my...

 

[fireproof78]

Pretty muted praise. The ship design and uniforms were appealing. Wow.

Maybe you just hate the show and won’t ever change your opinion, which is absolutely fine. Could be that any people who didn’t like it originally and now do don’t represent you. Sort of like how many of the people who hate Discovery aren’t just going to change their opinion in 20 years.

Maybe. I don't know. Haven't really felt the need to test the theory. I just know I have observed some changes in perspectives across fandoms for a while now and I think a similar thing may happen with Discovery. With you, it may not, and that's OK. It's ok to hate a show.

 

[Shikarnov]

I enjoyed it. I enjoyed a story arc driven trek as opposed to the episodic ones. I enjoy that the franchise has modernised and moved with the times. I’ve read a lot of reviews and feedback about missing 26 episode series and it “not being real trek”
I don’t get it, this is a modern trek for a modern times. I mean sure we all would have wanted something different and it’s far from perfect. But I for one don’t miss the standard holodeck/stuck in the transporter/let’s build the captain a new chair episodes.
The new series need to compete with a totally new TV landscape. Disco, and Picard are doing that.
But then I am a fanboy.

I think Star Trek means different things to different people. Some enjoy the tech, others enjoy the philosophy, some like action or the adventure, and so on.

In my case -- and I speak only for myself -- I feel like Star Trek generally (and Discovery particularly) has moved in a direction that appeals to others more than me. That's disappointing, and I don't like feeling disappointed.

I miss the days when Starfleet officers were smart and hard-working -- the best of the best -- and Star Trek fans were too (even though walking around with my head in a Trek novel resulted in merciless ridicule in school from the "cool" kids). I miss the ethos of genuine effort being both respected and rewarded, and can't get myself worked up over a story about James Kirk being a juvenile delinquent who saves Earth and becomes Captain before he even graduates from Starfleet Academy just because he's awesome -- or Michael Burnham betraying her commanding officer on multiple occasions and then getting the center seat because she reminds an admiral of his daughter. (And are we fans really expected to buy the idea that in a whole galaxy of highly capable people, only Michael Burnham could solve the greatest mystery of all time?)

I like the idea of Lt. Kirk being a "walking pile of books," who worked hard, made mistakes, grew up, gained experience, and earned his captaincy and along with it the right to exercise his own judgment at times. He was "a starship commander... a valuable commodity." These new Treks lack that je ne sais quoi that made the old ones so much more appealing and inspiring to me. In this new ethos, greatness is a natural gift, and as long as everybody else gets out of the way and falls into line, everything will be okay with the universe.

None of this is to say the shows are bad. They're just intended for a different audience than the Star Trek I grew up with. And that sucks because I really want more of what I love.

 

[fireproof78]

Always so interesting to see what people like. Honestly, I want Star Trek to appeal more to a larger audience. I get so frustrated for being mocked for liking TOS, even from Star Trek fans, growing up that having more of something that appeals to others is much more welcoming.

I guess I have a weird view. Do I want more of what I love? Sure. But I already have what I love too, which is not what other people can say about Star Trek. These Star Treks may be different than the pass but they still speak to me. Largely because there are severely painful journeys that are acknowledging that pain actually happens, rather than moving past it in a cut scene.

I won't unpack the rest since I don't agree. I just will say that I want more people to like Trek; I've wanted that far longer than I could say and if this is the way others can enjoy Trek I am all for it. I have mine.

 

[Jadeb]

I fear that chasing mainstream popularity for a 50+-year-old franchise that has rarely known it is less likely to succeed than simply dilute what attracted its fans in the first place. We see what happened with the Kelvin films — people were interested, once ... and now there are no more.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the Kelvin films were more of a missed opportunity because they hesitated to go more in to the mainstream. They fell back on to the Star Trek tropes with Khan. They didn't commit to what made ST 09 a larger success.

 

[Mojochi]

Some people who have a negative opinion are bigots, yes.

Some other people who have a negative opinion are purists who can't tolerate any change, yes.

... but can we stop pretending those are the only reasons not to like Discovery?

Exactly this.

I actually don't hate it. I even tried to like both it & Picard. There's a couple characters that are ok imho, but like so much modern drama, it's just a drudge to get through, & I'm not holding it up to other Star Trek at all with that critique, just as drama in general. It's not as much a drudge as The Walking Dead had become to me. It's about on par with Amazon's Jack Ryan amount of drudge imho.

Use to be I could tell immediately when I wasn't going to like a show, but with modern storytelling the way it is, I've found much more often, I'm a half season into it, & realizing "I think I just don't want to bother with this anymore.". I watched all of S1 Picard & realized this half way through, but hung in... because Patrick Stewart, (Doubt I'll be back) but with Discovery, I had no such investment, & just bailed midway through.

Which is actually even more depressing when you're a franchise fan, than just immediate abject disapproval. I certainly don't want to have to hold a subscription to a service that's only use to me is those titles, in order to watch something I have undeniable waning fondness for.

 

[fireproof78]

Genuine question: does lack of interest in a recent franchise installment decrease interest in the overall franchise?

 

[Jadeb]

I think the Kelvin films were more of a missed opportunity because they hesitated to go more in to the mainstream. They fell back on to the Star Trek tropes with Khan. They didn't commit to what made ST 09 a larger success.

I tend to think the larger issue is that most people just aren’t that into Star Trek. It’s not that the franchise needs to make itself more visible or more accessible, it’s that people have already checked it out and then checked out. The audience may show up for a fun one-off, but at this point we have more than 50 years of evidence that the general public does not have a sustained appetite for Star Trek.

It’s like the dire state of the comic industry. People love the characters, flock to the movies, and know comics exist, but most people will never consider reading the source material. It’s a hard pass, and all the advertising/rebooting/pretzel twisting in the world is unlikely to change that. So if the company success metric becomes “sell a million copies a month,” they’re doomed to fail, no matter how much the corporate execs may want it.

I’d rather Trek succeed at being Star Trek than sell its soul for an audience that has already shown it isn’t interested.

 

[fireproof78]

Original vision of action/adventure series designed to appeal to a large audience?

 

[johnjm22]

You're no more of a fan of VOY or ENT than I am. Neither one of us is a huge fan of the UPN Trek series. Which means 20 years ago, we might've actually could've been on the same side.

Me? I'm a fan of TNG and DS9.

It's true that I don't really like VOY or ENT. But I don't think they're terrible. They did have their moments and they did improve. I just think that by the time they came around Bermen Trek had run it's course. It was feeling pretty tired.

Discovery on the other hand, I think it's cringe and awful. I don't see any improvement. And judging by the approach the creative team is taking (trying to pander to everyone), I don't think it's going to improve.

Between Picard, Short Treks, and Discovery the current people running the franchise have produced one good episode (Calypso).

 

[Oddish]

Q: What do TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, DSC, LD, and PIC all have in common?
A: Some people don't like them.

All that matters is that enough people DO like them for them to remain on the air. If that happens, they are a success.

 

[johnjm22]

I think the Kelvin films were more of a missed opportunity because they hesitated to go more in to the mainstream. They fell back on to the Star Trek tropes with Khan. They didn't commit to what made ST 09 a larger success.

I agree, but I think Discovery does the same thing.

Plenty of times DSC has dug up old episodes or characters of Trek and shoved in memberberries. And of course Michael couldn't just be her own character. She has to be linked to a famous old Star Trek character somehow.

 

[fireproof78]

I agree, but I think Discovery does the same thing.

Plenty of times DSC has dug up old episodes or characters of Trek and shoved in memberberries. And of course Michael couldn't just be her own character. She has to be linked to a famous old Star Trek character somehow.

I see the point and it is frustrating. But, I also think Michael became her own character over time. I think the Kelvin characters did as well and I think more can be done.

But, ultimately, people want safe and familiar.

 

[Lord Garth]

Me? I'm a fan of TNG and DS9.

It's true that I don't really like VOY or ENT. But I don't think they're terrible. They did have their moments and they did improve. I just think that by the time they came around Bermen Trek had run it's course. It was feeling pretty tired.

Discovery on the other hand, I think it's cringe and awful. I don't see any improvement. And judging by the approach the creative team is taking (trying to pander to everyone), I don't think it's going to improve.

Between Picard, Short Treks, and Discovery the current people running the franchise have produced one good episode (Calypso).

If you feel this way, then why are you still watching? It doesn't make sense. If I were you, I would've stopped by now. It's not as if you see any potential in them or there's something you like that keeps you going. If I don't get anything out of something, I just drop it. I don't go to an empty refrigerator hoping there'll magically be food in it if I didn't go shopping.

 

[johnjm22]

I see the point and it is frustrating. But, I also think Michael became her own character over time. I think the Kelvin characters did as well and I think more can be done.

But, ultimately, people want safe and familiar.

I think the creators of new Trek are always trying maintain a delicate balance: Make something new that appeals to a broader audience while simultaneously retaining the old fanbase.

The formula for accomplishing this balance is always the same. Cram in more action, fantasy, special FX Star Warsy stuff for the general audience, while throwing in references, characters and memberberries from previous Trek for the established fanbase.

That's what the Kelvin movies were, and that's what Discovery and Picard are.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the creators of new Trek are always trying maintain a delicate balance: Make something new that appeals to a broader audience while simultaneously retaining the old fanbase.

The formula for accomplishing this balance is always the same. Cram in more action, fantasy, special FX Star Warsy stuff for the general audience, while throwing in references, characters and memberberries from previous Trek for the established fanbase.

That's was the Kelvin movies were, and that's what Discovery and Picard are.

Well, at least I got characters that I am fully invested in and having an interesting story, despite the VFX.

 

[johnjm22]

If you feel this way, then why are you still watching? It doesn't make sense. If I were you, I would've stopped by now. It's not as if you see any potential in them or there's something you like that keeps you going. If I don't get anything out of something, I just drop it. I don't go to an empty refrigerator hoping there'll magically be food in it if I didn't go shopping.

I like Star Trek and I like to follow it to see where it's going. I like to talk about Star Trek and it's not just about the content itself. There's an industry/business side of it that I like to follow.

But I pretty much did stop watching closely. I just check in. Verify that's it still awful, and occasionally bitch about it on the internet.

 

[fireproof78]

Stay consistent.