Why so few secondary characters in later Trek?
- Thread starter Gotham Central
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The first and fifth seasons did flesh out the core characters a bit, and there was the occasional special episode that gave one of the leads a romance or something, but yeah, for most of the series they deliberately kept the lead characters ciphers so that the focus could be on their assumed roles.
I'm thinking more in terms of the ways the writers and directors gave us a sense there was a bigger community on those ships, rather than necessarily a supporting cast, per se, and forgive me if this goes too far afield. TOS often showed crew running to and fro, had the captain concerned with keeping his crew abreast of their situation, and showed us that there were different departments manned by people we'd never seen before. Meyer captured that, too, in TWOK. There was a real sense of a crew aboard (and even a palpable distinction between officers and men). TNG had that for a while, but lost it after a few years. And let's not forget all those wonderful radio communications you could always hear in the background on the TOS bridge, with the various departments checking in and coordinating with each other.
Some noisy comments above notwithstanding, having served in the military DID give the creators of TOS the ability to bring a certain level of verisimilitude to ship's operations. Having neither served in the military nor even so much as watched TOS, Bermaga thought it was 7 guys in a single room pushing buttons. It never even occurred to them that there were phaser crews, torpedo crews, shuttle deck crews, or hell, any crew at all, unless a story called for a crewman. I'm not even convinced that Bermaga know that not every Federation citizen wears a Starfleet uniform.
Some noisy comments above notwithstanding, having served in the military DID give the creators of TOS the ability to bring a certain level of verisimilitude to ship's operations. Having neither served in the military nor even so much as watched TOS, Bermaga thought it was 7 guys in a single room pushing buttons. It never even occurred to them that there were phaser crews, torpedo crews, shuttle deck crews, or hell, any crew at all, unless a story called for a crewman. I'm not even convinced that Bermaga know that not every Federation citizen wears a Starfleet uniform.
Rather common at the time. The only show of recent vintage that did that for a while was the original Law & Order.
I would describe Quark right from the start as a main character and not a secondary. Later Garak given how much screen time he had was also a main character.
Unquestionably. Shimerman was a main-title regular from the get-go. Garak made one guest appearance in season 1 and then started showing up again occasionally from season 2 onward.
I think a lot of that had disappeared by season two of TOS. The ship seemed less crowded and busy in the latter two seasons, with bridge crew making up most landing parties. Budget concerns more than likely was the cause. Not sure if there was a "palpable distinction between officers and men". Hard to make that distinction when there were no visible enlisted ranks. And many of the background extras had rank fluctuations along with department shifts.
While serving no doubt did inform them, it was twenty years in their pasts and not always in a service analogous to Starfleet. I know my father, who was active duty military in the 60s found much of Star Trek's "military" aspects humorous. (most military shows got the same reaction)
I'm no fan of "Bermaga" but I'm not sure the charge they never watched TOS is accurate. IIRC Braga had watched most of TOS by the end of his tenure. Not sure about Berman. It was also Roddenberry who asked the writers not to watch TOS.
We've also seem plenty of civilians in later Trek, very few of which wore Starfleet uniforms. Some of them were even regulars and reoccurring characters. And we were constantly meeting Starfleet officers and crew other than the "seven guys pushing buttons in a room", as both background extras and guest stars. So I'm not sure why you think otherwise.
Can we please kill this ridiculous "Bermaga" thing? Brannon Braga worked for Rick Berman, as did many other people. He was the showrunner on two seasons of Voyager, then he and Berman co-created Enterprise and ran it together. They weren't joined at the hip. Braga was one of several showrunners who worked for Berman at various times. And Braga had multiple different collaborators as a writer, first Ron Moore on TNG, then Joe Menosky on VGR, then Ken Biller in VGR's later seasons, before finally having Berman as his writing partner on ENT. I'll never understand where this counterfactual meme came from that the two were somehow inseparable partners in all things. The only time that was even close to true was on ENT. (Maybe it's just that people are drawn to the alliteration?)
As far as building a sense of community in the background crew, I'd say ENT did a good job with that. They had many frequently recurring extras and bit players just as TOS did, particularly the stunt performers who played the MACOs in seasons 3-4. Follow the show closely and you'll see lots of faces consistently appearing.
As far as building a sense of community in the background crew, I'd say ENT did a good job with that. They had many frequently recurring extras and bit players just as TOS did, particularly the stunt performers who played the MACOs in seasons 3-4. Follow the show closely and you'll see lots of faces consistently appearing.
Folks needed a scapegoat for what they didn't like in Modern Trek, which for a lot of the Old Guard was nearly everything. Ron Moore and Ira Behr also needed scapegoats and blame Berman for everything (though in their case they're really just being brats who didn't appreciate how easy they really had it in terms of production) so the fandom followed suit.
Folks dislike them because they need someone to dislike, not because they're actually responsible for what is disliked.
Folks dislike them because they need someone to dislike, not because they're actually responsible for what is disliked.
Its funny how you, who never worked on the show, seem to know who has what easy.
Berman was a BIG part of the problem. Ira Behr recalled him and Berman getting in to fierce arguments over elements of DS9. I specifically remember him telling the story about the fight he and Berman had over Nog losing a leg. Berman initially refused to let it happen saying that doing so was inappropriate and not something that should happen on Star Trek. Behr thought the whole argument was stupid. Given the state of Trek medicine it was obvious that Nog would be up walking again in no time….but Berman could not see that. In the end Behr won.
That tells me two things:
1. Berman was really bad at seeing the bigger picture and stifled creativity.
2. It illustrates how important it is to have a show runner with a real creative vision that is willing to fight for good stories instead of being a yes man.
I'm not saying there aren't legitimate grounds for criticizing Berman or Braga. I'm just bewildered that so many people invent totally false and counterfactual grounds for criticizing them on top of the legitimate ones. I've heard people blame Braga for the flaws in Insurrection and Nemesis, two films he had absolutely nothing to do with, because of this bizarre fiction that he and Berman were two halves of a single entity. All you have to do is read the credits to know he had nothing to do with them, but these people can't be bothered to let basic facts get in the way of their vitriol.
In my opinion, Braga is unfairly vilified by Trek fandom in general. But the mysterious idea that he is Berman's right hand man in everything is tiresome. Unfortunately, it does seem a lot of fans just don't want to acknowledge that Braga had less power than they thought. Hell, I remember when rumours of the Berman produced Star Trek The Beginning were circulating as the eleventh movie and it was established that Braga would have nothing to do with it someone on this very forum actually posted "but that doesn't make sense, Braga is Berman's partner."
About a decade ago, I actually started a thread here pointing out that Braga is only responsible for a fraction of the Trek related things he's blamed for. Someone actually replied "that's like saying an accused serial killer is only guilty of killing 5 of the 8 he's accused of killing. The crime has still been committed."
It shocks me when people think Trek fandom is harsh on Abrams and his cohorts. No one talks about them like this, and yet there are those who think Orci is some sort of hero for calling fans "shitty" and telling them to "fuck off."
About a decade ago, I actually started a thread here pointing out that Braga is only responsible for a fraction of the Trek related things he's blamed for. Someone actually replied "that's like saying an accused serial killer is only guilty of killing 5 of the 8 he's accused of killing. The crime has still been committed."
It shocks me when people think Trek fandom is harsh on Abrams and his cohorts. No one talks about them like this, and yet there are those who think Orci is some sort of hero for calling fans "shitty" and telling them to "fuck off."
I think people who use fandom as an excuse for hate and rage are missing the point, and making it unpleasant for the rest of us. This is supposed to be entertainment. It's supposed to be enjoyable. Sure, if we don't enjoy something we want to enjoy, that's disappointing, but nurturing an ongoing anger about it for years on end is counterproductive. Just let it go and find something else you can enjoy.
Whatever interference Behr got on DS9, it was NOTHING compared to the level of interference the VOY and ENT teams got. Behr had it easy.
If this was one of the major things Berman and Behr clashed over, then Behr really DID have it majorly easy.This is nothing. Behr is just being a whiner, when he didn't even have it that bad.
Somebody close to the production -- I forget who -- told me once that part of the reason Behr was able to get away with so much more than the VGR people was because Berman found him physically intimidating. Although it's probably largely because DS9 was always the overlooked Trek series, overshadowed first by TNG and then by VGR, so Berman considered it a lower priority and thus micromanaged it less.
And of course VGR and ENT had the added burden of being on a network that considered them its tentpoles and thus wanted to ride close herd over them. UPN put a lot of restrictions on those shows that even Berman objected to, like foisting the Temporal Cold War and transporters onto ENT.
And of course VGR and ENT had the added burden of being on a network that considered them its tentpoles and thus wanted to ride close herd over them. UPN put a lot of restrictions on those shows that even Berman objected to, like foisting the Temporal Cold War and transporters onto ENT.
DS9 was syndicated and didn't have to worry about network interference, which was VOY and ENT's main problem.
When Behr got his own UPN network show (The Twilight Zone remake) it bombed hard, which shows that Behr ain't all that himself even without Berman for him to blame everything on and him having to deal with the Network himself.
When Behr got his own UPN network show (The Twilight Zone remake) it bombed hard, which shows that Behr ain't all that himself even without Berman for him to blame everything on and him having to deal with the Network himself.
I think this may be part of what makes people remember DS9 as doing so much better in terms of secondary characters and a 'realistic' world than the other series. It's not just about the number of secondary characters, but also the possibility for secondary characters to, over time, potentially become main characters (in fact if not in name).
^There was talk of making Shran a regular if ENT had had a fifth season.
All this tells me is that Berman had a different opinion than Behr on how to proceed, not that he "stifled creativity" or was a "yes man" or didn't have "creative vision".
What's wrong with a different opinion? That's what generates discussion, debate etc.
I just wish Berman had caught Behr on the whole Sisko-as-part-prophet nonsense!
It is thanks to Berman (and Piller, of course) that the aforementioned Behr got the gig on DS9. Berman has said that he trusted Ira with running the show on a day-to-day basis because he had to take a "higher level" position within the franchise.
Subsequently, Behr seems to get off on giving fans (who lap it up) stories about how he fought Berman, struggled to keep the bean counters at bay etc etc. It's tiresome.
I wish fans would one day realise just what a massive positive impact Berman had on all Trek post-1987. You don't have to like everything he did/was involved in, but he was essential to TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise (and of course, movies 7-10).
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