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Why it is important some people are unhappy

You can defend the 60s design as a classic of its era, and I'd agree. You can't defend it now. By that understanding, we'd still want cars with big fins and lots of chrome (well, I do sometimes, but that's just me). In some ways, we've seen too much, moved on.

So should you.
I find this argument to be strange (and made to often)... the original series Enterprise design used a utilitarian basis rather than style. It was supposed to do what it was supposed to do and style wasn't suppose to be part of the design. Jefferies followed the design ethic of aircraft of the day, and didn't use any 50's or 60's style elements in the design.

But if you want to compare the design of the TOS Enterprise to something, I suggest that we equate it to either the Douglas DC-9 (1965) or Boeing 727 (1964)... both of which are aircraft designs that predate that of the TOS Enterprise. So how well do those designs fare in comparison to a more recent aircraft like the Boeing 717 (1999)?

I, for one, would have been fine if the design of the Enterprise changed as much for this movie as the designs of the DC-9 and 727 had changed compared to todays 717.

You talk about big fins and lots of chrome... the original TOS Enterprise had nothing like either pointless elements, but the STXI Enterprise seems to be inundated with such fluff. All style over substance.

So your argument is actually backwards... what you really want more of from Trek ships is things like the big fins and lots of chrome, and it looks like your getting your wish. But the argument that the TOS Enterprise had any style elements (at all) that could be dated is a false premise... it had no style, which is why it is timeless. People have (over the years) made associations with it and the era when it was on TV, but those associations are based on emotions rather than facts... and the facts are that the TOS Enterprise's most defining feature is it's lack of pointless style elements.

:rolleyes:

But maybe you are right... maybe today's audiences can't comprehend a strictly utilitarian design. Maybe the only way to sell the Enterprise to today's audiences is just the way they are going to do it, with a ship so oozing with style that two or three years from now it'll be totally dated and we'll all be wanting something different.

The arguments are academic now... it is set in motion and we are going to get what we get.
 
But the fan base hasn't been alienated - only a small percentage of it - and those will watch it time and again, just to bitch.

So it's win-win for the production company! :techman:

And this also misses the point that this film has been budgeted on the basis of attracting a mainstream audience - sure they will lose some hardcore but that's the gamble the studio is willing to take.

Uhhh WTH are you going on about?

The reason Trek has failed is the hardcore people have tuned out with the attempts to make the series more "mainstream" with Enterprise and Nemesis.

Abrams Trek isn't appealing to those people (the hardcore fans) and it seems like the only people that are excited about this crap are the ones who stayed with Enterprise. I wouldn't call Enterprise people the base of the fandom.

I didn't like Enterprise, and I am looking forward to this movie.
 
But it is also so very old school, so very 20th Century.

Because I'm doing designs based on TOS, out of a fondess for that era of ship. That's not the full limits of my work, and, as I've REPEATEDLY said, it's not that I feel that the TOS-R would have been the best choice for the big screen, but it would have been BETTER than an extremely dated CGI model that's using last year's CGI fads in designing it.

No, it's just a ship, whereas a real SF movie is about the people, something you may have forgotten while focusing on design.
You make too many assumptions. From what I've seen of the characters and interaction, this is seriously low-grade stuff here. Kirk as an angsty, clueless peeping tom? Uhura as the 'sexy senior' and nothing else, etc, etc... To be honest, if the 'Car off a cliff' scene is supposed to be character development, dear GOD are you making a bad argument for this film.

So should you.
In case, moving on would mean doing something actually NEW. Remember, the whole point of this is to cash in on nostalgia and 'Trek of Yore'. So, don't you find it incredibly stupid that your'e saying 'It's OLD TREK BACK' on one hand as a plus, then simultaneously saying "OLD TREK SUCKS AND ITS DATED" on the other?

And I think you make too many assumptions about me.

Old Trek, for its time, doesn't suck, and holds up pretty well, but some, well, most, of its production values have dated. I NEVER diss the show, they did an amazing job for the time. And I'd like to think that JJAmay be able to pull off something similar. Why can't you give the guy the benefit of the doubt? What do you have to lose?

I watch a lot of programes from different eras. TOS, Maverick, old Brit sitcoms, Monty Python, Hogans's Heroes, VOY, Lexx, Callan, The Equalizer, BBC costume dramas, and so on (and hey, don't be dissing my watching tastes. :)). While you have to take them in context of the time period they're set in, you also have to take into coinsideration the year in which they were produced.

Example: Brideshead Revisited. The new movie is different to the 80s TV series, even though they're based on exactly the same story. Each of them brings out different aspects of the original that are more relevant to their intended audiences.

In that same way, TOS and The Star Trek Movie (TSTM, you saw it here first folks!) have to address their respective audiences. And in their separate time frames, each had/has to work to garner a new audience.

Imagine for a moment a 1960s internet. After TOS eps air, people going on line and saying "Far out, that was so uncool man!" "Where were the rocket engines and the fins?!" And so forth, and so on.

So a certain level of reinvention of the production values HAS to happen, to make it mre relvant to a contemporary audience.

You'e basing your intense dislike of the ship on maybe 10 seconds of screen time, and your character dislike on action grabs that are aimed at a wide audience, not necessarily the likes of you and me.

Why 'cash in on 'Trek of Yore''? That dog don't hunt no more. There's a wealth of back story in place - keep as much of it as possible as a cornerstone (which should please old fans, as well as some brand recognition for a wider audience), but build something fresh around it (which should help get new fans).

Kirk as peeping tom? I must have blinked in that part of the trailer. We ARE talking about James "let me... show you this... Earth thing called... kissing" Kirk here. He's always seemed to me to have had a troubled early life that informed and weighed his decisions later.

Watch any old show from the 60s. People don't behave like that now. You have to make over the character a little, especially in dialogue.

Bottom line: it'll be fine on the night. Trust me. If not, I promise to print off TSTM script and eat it, okay? Don't stress so much.

Mind you, if we get ST 90210 or a young ST as postulated in SG1's '200', I will be MIGHTILY pissed off. But I am willing to wait and see.

Apologies for trying to be reasonable :)

ETA -

Shaw said:
You talk about big fins and lots of chrome... the original TOS Enterprise had nothing like either pointless elements, but the STXI Enterprise seems to be inundated with such fluff. All style over substance.

So your argument is actually backwards... what you really want more of from Trek ships is things like the big fins and lots of chrome, and it looks like your getting your wish. But the argument that the TOS Enterprise had any style elements (at all) that could be dated is a false premise... it had no style, which is why it is timeless. People have (over the years) made associations with it and the era when it was on TV, but those associations are based on emotions rather than facts... and the facts are that the TOS Enterprise's most defining feature is it's lack of pointless style elements.
No, you're missing my point: it doesn't matter. The ship is secondary to the story. As I said, I'm not thrilled with the design, but I wouldn't boycott this film just because of that. That makes no sense at all.
 
Jefferies followed the design ethic of aircraft of the day, and didn't use any 50's or 60's style elements in the design.

... maybe today's audiences can't comprehend a strictly utilitarian design. Maybe the only way to sell the Enterprise to today's audiences is just the way they are going to do it, with a ship so oozing with style that two or three years from now it'll be totally dated and we'll all be wanting something different.
It already looks dated. A couple guys in my office said it reminds them of a 1957 Chevrolet.

You've made a good point that I'm sure will fall on mostly deaf ears.

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Reasonable? This is a TREK forum, man!

But, seriously, I'm caveating that I'm only basing my opinions on what's coming out in the media, including trailers, photos, and all, and I'm not liking what I'm seeing. I'm honestly not ALL that stressed. It's Sunday, I got my work done, and I'm shooting the poo.

I don't like the ship on its own merits for the same reason I didn't originally like Gabe's. You know what, though, when I sat down, explained to Gabe, personally, in detail, WHY the old girl looked like it did, and what the original ship was really going for, Gabe actually revised his ship and made something a lot of fans are drooling over even now. It's still not quite my cup of tea, but I would have easily preferred it over to the ship in NuTrek.

As for the characters, the first strike was the 'cliff scene' in the Trailer, and I hope to God it's not really in the movie, as it's pointless and rediculous. (I assume Kirk's taste in wigs and toupees that improve later). There's Uhura topless, and the sex scene , etc etc.. lots of things that don't remind me of Trek, or even just good Sci-Fi ... but does remind me of what the Sci-Fi channel puts out. As I've said.
 
Reasonable? This is a TREK forum, man!

But, seriously, I'm caveating that I'm only basing my opinions on what's coming out in the media, including trailers, photos, and all, and I'm not liking what I'm seeing. I'm honestly not ALL that stressed. It's Sunday, I got my work done, and I'm shooting the poo.

I don't like the ship on its own merits for the same reason I didn't originally like Gabe's. You know what, though, when I sat down, explained to Gabe, personally, in detail, WHY the old girl looked like it did, and what the original ship was really going for, Gabe actually revised his ship and made something a lot of fans are drooling over even now. It's still not quite my cup of tea, but I would have easily preferred it over to the ship in NuTrek.

As for the characters, the first strike was the 'cliff scene' in the Trailer, and I hope to God it's not really in the movie, as it's pointless and rediculous. (I assume Kirk's taste in wigs and toupees that improve later). There's Uhura topless, and the sex scene , etc etc.. lots of things that don't remind me of Trek, or even just good Sci-Fi ... but does remind me of what the Sci-Fi channel puts out. As I've said.

Why does it make it seem like a Sci-fi channel movie? It's sex! People have it. Its in the movie, and to what extent we don't know. Why do people freak out about sex in a movie?! We don't even know the context...
 
Vance, I'm fine with that, I think your points are valid though I don't necessarily agree. I do think Koerner(sp?)'s ship looke pretty good, and would have been, perhaps, a little happier with that. It's sad, but to a certain extent the current movie HAS to distance itself from what has gone before, much as wer've seen with Batman, and this is a quick way to do it.

I'd rather wait in hope than despair, but to each their own.
 
Why does it make it seem like a Sci-fi channel movie? It's sex! People have it. Its in the movie, and to what extent we don't know. Why do people freak out about sex in a movie?! We don't even know the context...

Because it's being sold for its own sake? And, of course, similar scenes worked so well for Voyager, Enterprise, and Nemesis, right? It's a cheap titilation trick, and nothing more. I don't respect it as a production or writing choice. You're just going to have to accept my opinion on this matter as wrote.
 
Vance, I'm fine with that, I think your points are valid though I don't necessarily agree. I do think Koerner(sp?)'s ship looke pretty good, and would have been, perhaps, a little happier with that. It's sad, but to a certain extent the current movie HAS to distance itself from what has gone before, much as wer've seen with Batman, and this is a quick way to do it.

You realize, of course, the big irony in your statement is that the last two Batman movies are very much like, in look and feel, the original Batman serial comics. :)
 
^Yeah, I know, but they go in a straight line, comics to Begins, and avoide the Burton Schmacher heresies.

I'm hoping we see TOS to TSTM in a straight line, and avoid the INS/NEM heresies, if you see what I mean.
 
Why does it make it seem like a Sci-fi channel movie? It's sex! People have it. Its in the movie, and to what extent we don't know. Why do people freak out about sex in a movie?! We don't even know the context...

Because it's being sold for its own sake? And, of course, similar scenes worked so well for Voyager, Enterprise, and Nemesis, right? It's a cheap titilation trick, and nothing more. I don't respect it as a production or writing choice. You're just going to have to accept my opinion on this matter as wrote.

Okay, we can agree to disagree. I just think when handled correctly its no different then an action scene.
 
Okay, we can agree to disagree. I just think when handled correctly its no different then an action scene.

Trouble is, sex scenes are rarely handled 'correctly' in movies, and certainly not within most Sci-Fi and fantasy. No when thrown in, fairly graphically, in a 'general audiences' trailer for Star Trek (where it's now established that Kirk has a penis two inches smaller than average, thanks mkay)... you can see why I'm more than a little skeptical.
 
Longtime lurker, first time poster:
You can defend the 60s design as a classic of its era, and I'd agree. You can't defend it now.n.
What? Sure you can! It's a beautiful piece of design.

The production values we associate with it may seem dated (just like the styrofoam rocks on every planet the crew visited), but the ship itself, and especially the bridge, represent a beautiful melding of form and function. And within the particular fictional reality at hand, it represents the state of the art for the 2260s. The design aesthetics of the period are well established.

That's not to say I object to the concept of a redesign... but I think they should at least have stuck to something a little closer to the elegant proportions of the original ship. (A saucer that sweeps forward from the front of the engineering hull, not the back, for instance; or an engineering hull itself that hasn't been half scooped away. The new ship looks... front-heavy. Tipsy.) And I frankly think the new bridge will look dated long, long before the TOS version does.

As for the debate over the trailer, and Abrams' intentions? Well, as I wrote on my blog, my reactions are mixed:

There are two aspects to this, I suppose... what the trailer tells us about the story, and what it tells us about the style of the film. Both involve a certain unavoidable amount of guesswork… but at the very least, insofar as the trailer is presumably intended to entice me as a potential viewer, it’s not quite hitting the mark.

As noted elsewhere, I have no fundamental objection to the idea of “reimagining” Star Trek. Based on the dribbles of information and imagery released thus far, I don’t necessarily agree with every aspect of what’s being done with this film, but I’ve been willing to remain cautiously optimistic.

That remains mostly true in the wake of this trailer. It appears from what we see (and it’s been largely confirmed in interviews with Abrams and others) that this is first and foremost a coming-of-age film for James T. Kirk. Nothing wrong with that—and it opens up a genuinely unexplored niche in Trek history, never previously touched on except in scattered bits of dialogue...

I do think it’s important to respect established Trek canon where possible, but I’m not obsessive about it. Other long-time fans mostly seem willing to split that difference as well: e.g., as Tom Bondurant writes,
Without canon, Star Trek is merely a collection of stories. With it, though, Trek is a vast centuries-spanning galactic tapestry. …

[The new Trek] all looks familiar, but obviously it’s been changed — and for some, those changes are dealbreakers.

[But] when you get down to it, Star Trek is about the boldly going… and for something like this to work, it can’t be hamstrung with minutiae.
It’s got to be a dicey proposition to attempt to please both dedicated fans and broader audiences, and I don’t envy the screenwriters. Certainly, as Bondurant also notes, the path of least resistance would have been simply to connect the dots of those scattered bits of dialogue from the original series… but that would offer little that’s novel or imaginative, and probably please nobody. This film will no doubt be full of Easter eggs for the fans, but it won’t build the story around them.

To my eyes, most of the tweaks to canon that are visible here can be accepted as either (A) artistic license, or (B) side-effects of the film’s time-travel plot. Putting all of the familiar bridge crew on Pike’s ship may be a bit of a stretch, but in general I’m willing to play along... Bob Orci has promised that most of this stuff will be explained along the way. (Perhaps the most disconcerting aspect is the presence of Chekov, who as we all remember was an Ensign fresh from the academy during the FYM, easily 10-12 years younger than Kirk—so I can’t imagine how he could be part of the bridge crew years earlier, when Kirk himself was not yet an officer. Was it really necessary to include him at all? Does Chekov have fans?)...

But stylistically?

That’s a whole other kettle of tribbles. Perhaps the trailer’s not really reflective of the film as a whole: frankly, I hope not. Because this thing is shot and cut at such a frenetic pace that it could induce heart arhythmia. Almost every moment seems to focus on super-fast, in-your-face action. The music is much the same: nothing familiar (nor particularly dramatic; I certainly hope it’s not the actual score from the film), it serves mainly to drive home the roller-coaster pace of the thing. Every frame is bursting with sights and sounds, to the point where it blurs into sheer chaos.

Trek has never been about roller-coaster rides. It’s not about sensory overload. It’s about a sense of wonder, and imagination, and idealism. It’s about stories that unfold at a more measured pace, and action that (when it comes) makes sense and has maximum dramatic impact. When there’s an adrenaline rush, it’s earned.

What this trailer’s sensibility reminded me of, more than anything, was Star Wars. (And not just any Star Wars—worse, the Star Wars prequels, with an aesthetic that leaves you feeling overstuffed yet undernourished.)

That’s why my reactions are mixed, and my expectations, unavoidably, somewhat lowered. I just hope that the red flags raised by this trailer aren’t representative of the finished product. That would undermine Trek far more than any story point or set redesign possibly could.
 
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So, don't you find it incredibly stupid that your'e saying 'It's OLD TREK BACK' on one hand as a plus, then simultaneously saying "OLD TREK SUCKS AND ITS DATED" on the other?
Yeah, that attitude from a lot of the hear-no-evil posters really does kind of puzzle me. Original series Star Trek is what defines Star Trek. It was the first and the best, the template from which all others were derived.

If one isn't a fan of TOS, how can one be a Trek fan at all?

(I know, intellectually, that some people were first introduced to Trek through TNG, and some even consider it superior to TOS. I've never been able even remotely to understand this, though.)
 
I'll never know why people can't find a middle-ground with this new film, I mean nobody here has seen any more than the trailer, but yet they're so quick to judge. I'm 20 (21 in a month :D) and I was introduced to Star Trek through TNG, although after watching TNG, I watched TOS (albeit, not every episode) and I really liked it. I never really watched DS9 or Enterprise but I watched most episodes of Voyager as it used to be the slot between The Simpsons and Brainiac on Sky1.

But my point is, everyone is so quick to judge by the few scenes they've seen so far. Nobody knows exactly what is going to happen to Star Trek in general, this could be the greatest thing to happen in Star Trek history, or it could be it's greatest downfall.

To be honest I'm skeptical, but I'm really looking forward to it. It looks new, shiney.

I dunno if this is the arguement to be perfectly honest, I'm tired and couldn't be bothered to read 95% of the posts here, I just thought I'd leave my comments :P
 
The one that leaps out is casting an ugly Bond

You do keep saying that. I don't find him ugly at all (and the women I work with all think he's ruggedly handsome). I'd swap my face for his any day.

don't you find it incredibly stupid that your'e saying 'It's OLD TREK BACK' on one hand as a plus, then simultaneously saying "OLD TREK SUCKS AND ITS DATED" on the other?

I'm very happy to see a new version/continution of TOS that isn't amateur fanfic (as clever as some of that is - 'cos I was in one!) and, as much as I love TOS, it has been severely rejected by many in the TNG/DS9 demographic and beyond. As quaint as TOS's acting, costumes, makeup, model work, sets and SPFX are today, it simply can't compare to contemporary stuff and if TOS is to be back on top of its game then it does need to be updated. Later, a few of ST XI's fans will seek out TOS, and that's good too.

But who said because we hold that view that TOS is "DATED" that we think TOS "SUCKS"?
 
The one that leaps out is casting an ugly Bond

You do keep saying that. I don't find him ugly at all (and the women I work with all think he's ruggedly handsome). I'd swap my face for his any day.
I think Daniel Craig is fairly handsome too, and all the women I know tend to agree.

At any rate, in acting terms, he's the best Bond in decades.

But to segue back to the topic, Bond continuity is a bit different than Trek continuity. There's really no coherent argument to be made that the previous 20 Bond pictures could possibly portray the life story of a single character, even if they never had a clean reboot. Besides, true Bond "canon" should really be restricted just to Fleming's novels... all else is "intrepretation," including every film version.

...as much as I love TOS, it has been severely rejected by many in the TNG/DS9 demographic and beyond. As quaint as TOS's acting, costumes, makeup, model work, sets and SPFX are today, it simply can't compare to contemporary stuff...
"Severely rejected"? Come now. IMHO you can't be a Trek fan if you don't appreciate TOS. Production values are a ridiculously shallow reason for anyone to reject an otherwise worthy show (especially given that they were state-of-the-art at the time).

(I also find it interesting that you mention the costumes, since (to my surprise) Abrams has chosen to keep them almost unchanged in this film.)
 
Yeah, that attitude from a lot of the hear-no-evil posters really does kind of puzzle me. Original series Star Trek is what defines Star Trek. It was the first and the best, the template from which all others were derived.

And if Abrams and his creative team keep what made TOS great (adventure, a sense of wonder, action, a bit of humor, the occasional social commentary...), then a some changes to the visuals/the designs won't make a difference.
 
And if Abrams and his creative team keep what made TOS great (adventure, a sense of wonder, action, a bit of humor, the occasional social commentary...), then a some changes to the visuals/the designs won't make a difference.
It amuses me that people who favor a new 'look' say the changes "won't make a difference". It then stands to reason that not making those changes would have made no difference.

Then why make the changes? To the people who dislike them, it makes a difference. To the people who do like them, it apparently does not.

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