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Why it is important some people are unhappy

And if Abrams and his creative team keep what made TOS great (adventure, a sense of wonder, action, a bit of humor, the occasional social commentary...), then a some changes to the visuals/the designs won't make a difference.
It amuses me that people who favor a new 'look' say the changes "won't make a difference". It then stands to reason that not making those changes would have made no difference.

Then why make the changes? To the people who dislike them, it makes a difference. To the people who do like them, it apparently does not.

They don't make a difference in regards to the characters or the story.
It's actually not that hard to understand.
No one would even design something like the TOS-Enterprise and the TOS-interior-sets if they were given the task today.
 
No one would even design something like the TOS-Enterprise... if they were given the task today.
But there's nothing 'wrong' with the design we've been familiar with for 40+ years.

As was mentioned somewhere in the forum a couple days ago, modern passenger planes aren't distinguishable in 'style' from their counterparts of 40 years ago . Why should our starships be any different?

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No one would even design something like the TOS-Enterprise... if they were given the task today.
But there's nothing 'wrong' with the design we've been familiar with for 40+ years.

As was mentioned somewhere in the forum a couple days ago, modern passenger planes aren't distinguishable in 'style' from their counterparts of 40 years ago . Why should our starships be any different?

Well, I guess if you want that thing to stay in the air, there are only so many shapes you could use.

But modern cars, passenger ships, motorbikes, telephones, TVs,... all look wastly different than their 1960s counterparts.
 
Well, I guess if you want that thing to stay in the air, there are only so many shapes you could use.

But modern cars, passenger ships, motorbikes, telephones, TVs,... all look wastly different than their 1960s counterparts.
One of the main reasons for this is a desire to appeal to consumers, and a need to differentiate one product from another for marketing reasons.

I don't think Starfleet will be swayed by such things for their starship designs.

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The success of a new Star Trek venture is akin to the success of a political campaign. If you don't motivate your base and get a large turnout of your base you won't win. Many believe that a big reason McCain lost the presidential election is that the Democrat base was supermotivated, and the Republican base was undermotivated.

I believe McCain lost because he sold himself out to Republican base. This is an excellent example of exactly why JJ should not and is not making a movie for "the base."
 
Well, I guess if you want that thing to stay in the air, there are only so many shapes you could use.

But modern cars, passenger ships, motorbikes, telephones, TVs,... all look wastly different than their 1960s counterparts.
One of the main reasons for this is a desire to appeal to consumers, and a need to differentiate one product from another for marketing reasons.

I don't think Starfleet will be swayed by such things for their starship designs.

But movie-maker are.
This isn't reality.
Or do you honestly think that Earth's 23rd century will look like the set of a 1960s TV-production?
 
But movie-maker are [motivated by marketing].
This isn't reality.
No, but it's a fictional reality. Whenever suspension of disbelief is involved, there's a fine line between cosmetic changes and backstory details that can easily be disregarded, and those that are significant enough to yank one out of the narrative experience.

Beyond that... there seem to be two different conversations going on in parallel here, with two different sets of criteria. One is about art, the other commerce. Whether or not the movie-makers are satisfied has everything to do with profitability, and very little to do with quality. Thus, when marketing concerns (as you posit re: ship redesign) intrude into storytelling, that's a problem, at least potentially. Personally, I couldn't care less whether "the franchise" ever makes another dime for Paramount; what's important is whether what's being produced is good Star Trek. If it's not, then we'd be just as well off with none at all, wouldn't we?
 
My feeling on this upcoming film... TOS didn't need a reboot, it was stale modern Trek that needed to go. Fan films have shown that the original look and feel of the series was pretty much fine.

I agree with this sentiment 100 percent. I stated something similar in another thread.

I still don't understand how Paramount's refusal to remove someone that was creatively exhausted (Rick Berman) somehow led them to the conclusion that Star Trek: The Original Series was the piece broken and in need of the overhaul we're seeing here.

Perhaps Modern Trek would still be going strong if Paramount had read the writing on the wall back during Insurrection and Voyager.

"Well Ma'am... you're brakes are bad so we're going to replace the steering wheel."

Look, I enjoy the fan films as much as most any other fan. I especially enjoy Exeter. That said, most people's response when exposed to fan films is "those people have WAY too much time on their hands!"

The fan films show that hardcore goobers like me will watch almost anything remotely resembling Star Trek, not necessarily because it's great, but because it's Trek. That WON'T make the kind of money Paramount envisions for this franchise, and honestly, it doesn't satisfy me either. I enjoy all of it, but to compare Phase II or Exeter to JJ's movie is bordering on lunacy. This movie will be the biggest thing in the history of the franchise, because it will be huge, well acted, with great effects and as near as I can tell a fairly compelling and newbie friendly story.

I personally hope it means more Trek for years to come, with the characters I love.

I know that there are MANY of you who will disagree with me-more power to you. I will be there at 12:00 AM on May 8th, and I'm sure I'll see it at least twice. That's $20.00, only $399,999,980.00 to go!:p:p:p:p

MRE
 
But movie-maker are [motivated by marketing].
This isn't reality.
No, but it's a fictional reality. Whenever suspension of disbelief is involved, there's a fine line between cosmetic changes and backstory details that can easily be disregarded, and those that are significant enough to yank one out of the narrative experience.

Beyond that... there seem to be two different conversations going on in parallel here, with two different sets of criteria. One is about art, the other commerce. Whether or not the movie-makers are satisfied has everything to do with profitability, and very little to do with quality. Thus, when marketing concerns (as you posit re: ship redesign) intrude into storytelling, that's a problem, at least potentially. Personally, I couldn't care less whether "the franchise" ever makes another dime for Paramount; what's important is whether what's being produced is good Star Trek. If it's not, then we'd be just as well off with none at all, wouldn't we?

As hard as it is to define what 'good Star Trek' is, to me the adherence to an outdated design-aesthetic is not part of it.
As 'Phase II' and 'Exeter' show, new Trek can be good, very good, even when it looks like it comes straight out of the 1960s.
But neither 'World enough and Time' nor 'The Tessaurian Incident' would be accessible to a general audience.
 
You have this pro-XI crowd that seems afraid of even the slightest dissension concerning this film. I just wonder why?
Most of the dissension isn't even rational. It's crying about zeroes starting registry numbers and how a movie made in 2008 doesn't look exactly the same as a 60s TV show. It's Captain Robert April, MattJC and The Wormhole. They're Team Stewey.

I'm looking forward to the movie. If it's good, I'll like it. If it sucks, I'll hate it. Can't really form a 100% conclusive opinion until after actually SEEING THE FINAL PRODUCT. But I'm not going to ask the Itchy and Stratchy creator why the ribcage being played like a xylophone produced two different notes on the same rib.

How many of the haters will watch the movie with the intent to bash every second of it to fulfill their own prophecy so they can tell everyone how right they were?

Are the 100% cheerfully optimistic shippers/fanboys/whatever you want to call them annoying? Yes. But on this board, they're by far the lesser of two evils.
 
As hard as it is to define what 'good Star Trek' is, to me the adherence to an outdated design-aesthetic is not part of it.
As 'Phase II' and 'Exeter' show, new Trek can be good, very good, even when it looks like it comes straight out of the 1960s.
But neither 'World enough and Time' nor 'The Tessaurian Incident' would be accessible to a general audience.
I disagree that the original design aesthetic looks dated. The production values do, sure—but not the design aesthetic. Others around here have made the case in much more detail; suffice it to say that I agree with them.

Other than that, two different sets of criteria are still getting intermingled here. Whether or not the new films appeals to "a general audience" is only relevant to Paramount's beancounters. It has nothing to do with whether the product feels like an authentic part of the Star Trek mythos.

If it's possible to achieve both of those goals (good Trek, and a large and profitable "general audience"), then terrific: everyone's happy. If it's not possible, though (and some folks around here do, oddly, seem to be making the argument that they're mutually exclusive)... well, obviously the producers would be happy with just the latter goal, but I'd prefer the former or none at all.
 
As hard as it is to define what 'good Star Trek' is, to me the adherence to an outdated design-aesthetic is not part of it.
As 'Phase II' and 'Exeter' show, new Trek can be good, very good, even when it looks like it comes straight out of the 1960s.
But neither 'World enough and Time' nor 'The Tessaurian Incident' would be accessible to a general audience.
I disagree that the original design aesthetic looks dated. The production values do, sure—but not the design aesthetic. Others around here have made the case in much more detail; suffice it to say that I agree with them.

Other than that, two different sets of criteria are still getting intermingled here. Whether or not the new films appeals to "a general audience" is only relevant to Paramount's beancounters. It has nothing to do with whether the product feels like an authentic part of the Star Trek mythos.

If it's possible to achieve both of those goals (good Trek, and a large and profitable "general audience"), then terrific: everyone's happy. If it's not possible, though (and some folks around here do, oddly, seem to be making the argument that they're mutually exclusive)... well, obviously the producers would be happy with just the latter goal, but I'd prefer the former or none at all.
But here's the thing if you go back and look at the Jupiter two, the Sub from Voyage to the Bottom of the see, Time Tunnel's command center, and Star Trek (the big sci fi series of the sixties) The look the same in the basics of how they were produced. Smooth lines, little in the way of detailing. Now yes the Jupiter two and the Enterprise are both unique ships in their own right but neither one of them is super detailed. When you look at them when they are in their universes they fit, but we aren't taking the 60's version of Star Trek which was (And you can't argue this) Designed around Television which has a different resolution and quality thatn Film (I've stated this before TV has always been trying to catch up to the resolution quality of Film and film equipment has changed VERY LITTLE since it began Better cameras, new types of film but all the techniuques are the same. Television has gone from film, to video recording, and is now heading to digital recording, why? As tv gets more advanced, as what you watch it on evolves the mediums you use begin to look dated. The things you designed to look good on the small screen when blown up on bigger screens don't look as good.

You say they could have come up with something that has made both fans and the General Auciance happy. I hate this argument because it HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN not once in any fandom, or any instance where a new trek has come out. It has never ever happened, no matter what a direcrtor does he's going to piss someone of because they won't like what he did. This is a logical fallacy that you can please everyone, especially since we have the statement that "You can't please everybody" Why do we have that statement, because it's true, it's an impossibility. I myself as a person who's put his own trek models together really don't see a large difference between JJ's enterprise and the original except some minor cosmetic changes that make the ship look a bit more functional. I mean having a place on the Nacelles that actually looks like it can collect the particles it's supposedly creates a field to attract yet where on the original design were they collected is a bad design cue?

Everyone who's MAJORLY upset about this, the ones stomping their feet and holding their fingers in there ears weren't going to be happy with any other person's version of Trek, they like to say they would be but they won't in the long run, they feel that the original is sacred and shouldn't be messed with. Others have their apprehentions and are waiting to see the movie before passing final judgement, and a similar small minority are people who'll swallow Trek no matter how bad the story is, like in any fandom.

It isn't important that some people are unhappy because there will always be those who are unhappy. There is nothing you can do to change this fact because...

Not everyone eats vanilla Ice Cream.
 
I love how some people are so worried about Abrams "destroying" Star Trek. Have they forgotten what VOY, ENT, INS and NEM already did to the franchise? Nothing Abrams could possibly do could be worse.

In fact this one trailer has likely excited a great many MORE people than ever watched those crappy spinoffs and movies to begin with.

Unless Abrams sends thugs to my house he can't destroy Star Trek. Regardless of whatever happens in the new movie, Star Trek is sitting right there on my DVD shelf where it always is.

I've had to ignore 4 bad TNG movies I can certainly ignore 1 bad TOS relainch movie.

Although for the record I think the new movie looks pretty spiffy.
 
if you go back and look at the Jupiter two, the Sub from Voyage to the Bottom of the see, Time Tunnel's command center, and Star Trek (the big sci fi series of the sixties) The look the same in the basics of how they were produced. Smooth lines, little in the way of detailing. Now yes the Jupiter two and the Enterprise are both unique ships in their own right but neither one of them is super detailed.
First, the Enterprise model couldn't be "super detailed" because of economics, but that actually worked to the advantage of the designer, who didn't want it to look welded or bolted together. It was smooth and seamless for a reason--to make it look like it was constructed with advanced technology. It doesn't look like something we're familiar with because it isn't.

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if you go back and look at the Jupiter two, the Sub from Voyage to the Bottom of the see, Time Tunnel's command center, and Star Trek (the big sci fi series of the sixties) The look the same in the basics of how they were produced. Smooth lines, little in the way of detailing. Now yes the Jupiter two and the Enterprise are both unique ships in their own right but neither one of them is super detailed.
First, the Enterprise model couldn't be "super detailed" because of economics, but that actually worked to the advantage of the designer, who didn't want it to look welded or bolted together. It was smooth and seamless for a reason--to make it look like it was constructed with advanced technology. It doesn't look like something we're familiar with because it isn't.

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I've built models, what it's too expensive to add a few panel lines and do a color wash with some paint on the model please it has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with the limits of TV technology.. If the 1930 german silent film Metropolis could look superfuturistic on the budget the director had in the 1930's Star Trek could have done the same thing. The problems were that the limits of tv cameras dictated the look of the show. Back in the sixties I agree when futuristic looking = clean and shiny yes it looked very futuristic for its time. Now as we've advanced in out fabrication we have found that even with ULTRASONIC Welding and Plasma welding that there are still going to be seams.(The designer at the time thought there would be new production methods that would create a seamless weld, but seeing as there is always a joint where you weld together matter (has something to do with physics guys) But you also have to remember the medium (god why is no one reading this stuff I mean I took classes in how to make tv shows in school...) the less detail on the models the better it worked because those first gen color tv cameras had certain limitations, it was just as much as the functions for the cameras as it was Jefferies Ideas. And if you had read what I wrote, EVERY sci fi show in the sixties had that clean look to it. Star Trek wasn't breaking any design barriers, they were doing the same stuff, just they came up with different and unique ships. The concepts were the same clean, detailess= futuristic. That future look isn't what we think of now in the 21st century because the 21 century came 40 years passed and a quarter of the way through the future looked the same as the past, so we now have a more sophisticated idea of what the future will look like and in another 40 years that may be outdated too. The future is always evovling. It is not stuck to what one design crew did 40, 30, 20, 10 or even 5 years ago..
 
It's all very exciting to have all these discussions about battling space ships, but where will the social commentary be?

The action is just a hypodermic to deliver the message drug, or at least it has been to date.

How will ST do this with the 'me' generation?
 
It's all very exciting to have all these discussions about battling space ships, but where will the social commentary be?

The action is just a hypodermic to deliver the message drug, or at least it has been to date.

Is it? When was the last time we had social commentary in a trek film?
 
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