Why is toxic fandom destroying everything?

[BillJ]

I want to apologize to whomever made a point earlier about Luke being a Mary Sue whenever "shortfalls" in Rey's character are brought up, I don't remember who made the comment. As an answer, I would say the nature of the Star Wars universe being a closed eco-system with special rules. When you have two characters pull off especially outlandish feats, one being a man, the other a woman and only one being complained about, it is instantly going to invite comparisons between the two characters feats.

I've seen The Force Awakens several times over the years, for me, I see why they made the decisions they made and don't see anything more outlandish out of Rey than I did out of Luke. While it wasn't Empire..., I found TFA an enjoyable romp, and easily in the top half of Star Wars films.

 

[BillJ]

I have to admit, the thought that the writers have an agenda and want to lecture me on "diversity"...

If diversity didn't sell, these writers wouldn't be getting tens of millions of dollars for these projects.

 

[Sim]

If diversity didn't sell, these writers wouldn't be getting tens of millions of dollars for these projects.

Fair enough ... sometimes I also wonder if some of these "debates" are deliberately fueled by the companies that produce the movies/shows, because it creates attention. Only no publicity is bad publicity.

 

[James Cole]

The cat is out of the bag at this point. Even SOUTH PARK did the special about Kathleen Kennedy and the pander stone. The Star Wars films had box office drop offs. ASHOKA and THE ACOLYTE have had declining viewership. I've disliked most of the Disney Star Wars output, but really liked ROGUE ONE and ANDOR. So what do the cross tabs have to say about that?

And, sure, there is a political factor at play here. As I always refer back to, surveys show that only 6-8% of the US population is "woke" (aka social justice progressive activists). If a project is seeking to oversample that demographic, while risking alienating the other 92-94% of the population, well, that's just a bad allocation of resources. Obviously what exactly is "woke" is a massive detour in and of itself.

Spoiler: Red Letter Media has a great attempt at a nuanced analysis of the polarizing reception to THE ACOLYTE

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Many NuTrek references thrown in as well.

 

[BillJ]

The cat is out of the bag at this point. Even SOUTH PARK did the special about Kathleen Kennedy and the pander stone. The Star Wars films had box office drop offs. ASHOKA and THE ACOLYTE have had declining viewership. I've disliked most of the Disney Star Wars output, but really liked ROGUE ONE and ANDOR. So what do the cross tabs have to say about that?

Any formula, universe, no matter how popular, will eventually hit a wall where fandom is simply no longer excited about it. I made a point earlier about how I can only watch Iron Man pummel someone, so many times, before I get bored and move on to something else.

And, sure, there is a political factor at play here. As I always refer back to, surveys show that only 6-8% of the US population is "woke" (aka social justice progressive activists). If a project is seeking to oversample that demographic, while risking alienating the other 92-94% of the population, well, that's just a bad allocation of resources. Obviously what exactly is "woke" is a massive detour in and of itself.

I can't imagine that this is simply how any of this works. The people who run these things have bosses and shareholders that they have to give good value to. No one is going to keep writing checks for something that isn't hitting some pre-determined viewership goal.

They aren't in business to lose money, if they keep losing money, then they won't be in business for long.

 

[Anwar]

The cat is out of the bag at this point. Even SOUTH PARK did the special about Kathleen Kennedy and the pander stone. The Star Wars films had box office drop offs.

Every SW movie since ANH had drop offs.

ASHOKA and THE ACOLYTE have had declining viewership.

So has the Mandalorian.

And, sure, there is a political factor at play here. As I always refer back to, surveys show that only 6-8% of the US population is "woke" (aka social justice progressive activists). If a project is seeking to oversample that demographic, while risking alienating the other 92-94% of the population, well, that's just a bad allocation of resources. Obviously what exactly is "woke" is a massive detour in and of itself.

Decent people aren't scared of women, nonwhites and nonhets

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

Decent people aren't scared of women, nonwhites and nonhets

Only individually, and in the proper context.

 

[Timewalker]

Correcting past mistakes isn't really wrong.

"Past mistakes"?

I guess I have to rephrase, since you keep dancing around this:

Do you think it's valid to dislike genderswapped characters? Never mind your own preferences. Think of the audience in general, some of whom are okay with genderswapping, and some of whom are not okay with genderswapping. There will be various reasons for disliking it.

I used the word "valid" because I'm frankly flabbergasted at the term "legitimate" - as though I'm not allowed to dislike the genderswapped nuBSG characters or the genderswapped Liet-Kynes in nuDune.

I am looking for a yes/no response.

 

[BillJ]

I am looking for a yes/no response.

It would depend on the reasoning.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

One with courage would, just like killing him during the OT would've been acceptable and frankly preferable.

All you are arguing is that a product never drops out of production, even when one--its creator designed it to end. That is the opposite of true artistry.. Moreover, Lucas--at that point in history--was not some random studio head who was so desperate to claw for pennies that he would--again at that point in history--fling some some uninspired crap at into theaters with one of its central characters killed off because the world knew the actor did not want to return.

Only desperate fanboys believe that would have been a good idea, because they need more, more, more, more, more. No end in sight, purpose and quality be damned. Thankfully, the Lucas of that period was never going to make such a terrible mistake.

 

[theenglish]

Do you think it's valid to dislike genderswapped characters? Never mind your own preferences. Think of the audience in general, some of whom are okay with genderswapping, and some of whom are not okay with genderswapping. There will be various reasons for disliking it.

I am looking for a yes/no response.

Disliking gender swapped characters just because a person of a different gender has been cast in a role in a remake or as a new doctor or whatever, and taking all other factors out of the discussion, is bigoted.

 

[Sim]

Disliking gender swapped characters just because a person of a different gender has been cast in a role in a remake or as a new doctor or whatever, and taking all other factors out of the discussion, is bigoted.

I disagree. It's extremely subjective why we develop an attachment and fondness for a fictional character, and sometimes, the gender of that character plays a role in it. Nothing wrong with that, imo.

When then, a remake gender swaps an established character, it's perfectly legitimate to hate that decision, merely for the subjective reasons the gender of that original character play for a fan, imo.

I would absolutely HATE it if they remade TOS by turning Kirk or Spock female. They wouldn't just be the same characters for me anymore, and it would feel like a slap in the face when they abused the familiar names for NEW characters just to make money, instead of being honest and introduce really new characters.

It's something different with shows like Doctor Who where it's established for almost 60 years that the Doctor becomes a totally different type of character every couple of years. A female Doctor was not any more distespectful towards the earlier Doctors than any other new Doctor. Likewise, Star Trek, before 2009 at least, had proven it's larger than just one original crew, so when you want great female characters, it's easy to just create them without swapping anything. And I'm glad that's what they did.

 

[BillJ]

I disagree. It's extremely subjective why we develop an attachment and fondness for a fictional character, and sometimes, the gender of that character plays a role in it. Nothing wrong with that, imo.

If one hates it every time it is done, without giving the benefit of the doubt to the new actor, then, to me, it would be problematic. Katee Sackoff as Starbuck? I thought I would absolutely hate it. She ended up being my favorite character in the 2004 Battlestar remake.

 

[Sim]

If one hates it every time it is done, without giving the benefit of the doubt to the new actor, then, to me, it would be problematic. Katee Sackoff as Starbuck? I thought I would absolutely hate it. She ended up being my favorite character in the 2004 Battlestar remake.

Yes, I guess you definitely miss good opportunities to be positively surprised, when you're too stubborn about not even giving change a fair chance.

If my example of genderswapped Kirk or Spock would ever happen, I'd probably hate the idea first, but then watch it nevertheless. And maybe I'd actually be positively surprised, if such new interpretations of the characters were well written.

However, I don't think anybody is "bigoted", just because the gender of a character is an important reason why he or she loves that character.

 

[BillJ]

However, I don't think anybody is "bigoted", just because the gender of a character is an important reason why he or she loves that character.

I tend to think 'short-sighted' is the better term.

 

[theenglish]

Changing character genders--specifically from male to female--is a creative choice aimed at correcting systemic racism and bigotry. You can say you disagree, but you would be wrong.

I said it was bigoted to disagree with the concept as that was the question asked--which is why I added in bold "and taking all other factors out of the discussion".

In your response, you seemed to have missed that caveat as you brought specific situations into the discussion. Each specific situation needs to be weighed by each person based on its unique merits.

I tend to think 'short-sighted' is the better term.

The original person who has the question multiple times implied they wanted a straightforward response that wasn't sugar coated. I gave it to them. If they don't understand the definition of the word I chose, they can look it up.

 

[BillJ]

Changing character genders--specifically from male to female--is a creative choice aimed at correcting systemic racism and bigotry. You can say you disagree, but you would be wrong.

I'm thinking that adding a couple of extra hot chicks in Starbuck and Boomer didn't hurt among the 18-35 male demographic that broadcasters shoot for.

 

[Sim]

Changing character genders--specifically from male to female--is a creative choice aimed at correcting systemic racism and bigotry. You can say you disagree, but you would be wrong.

See, and this is political ideology that is not *fact*, but just one way you can look at society. But you basically say "anybody who disagrees with me is a bigot".

It's just this kind of arrogant and self-righteous moral highground and politicizing that alienates so many people when they get the impression the writers of fiction share that attitude.

I said it was bigoted to disagree with the concept as that was the question asked--which is why I added in bold "and taking all other factors out of the discussion".

In your response, you seemed to have missed that caveat as you brought specific situations into the discussion. Each specific situation needs to be weighed by each person based on its unique merits.

Are there even people who disagree with the abstract concept of genderswapping in general, rather than with particular cases when that happened?

 

[The Realist]

Are there even people who disagree with the abstract concept of genderswapping in general, rather than with particular cases when that happened?

I think the answer to this is an unqualified "yes."

 

[theenglish]

Are there even people who disagree with the abstract concept of genderswapping in general, rather than with particular cases when that happened?

That was the question Timewalker asked--I responded twice because the first time seemed to have confused them so they asked for clarification, and I stand by that response. The answer to your question is "YES".

I wasn't commenting about your post in any way, although if you thought I was when I answered your question--then I apologize if I came off as flippant toward you.