Why is toxic fandom destroying everything?

[Owain Taggart]

And the problem is that ROTJ ended the saga too definitively. It's the same reason all attempts at doing any new series in the Babylon 5 universe all failed, because the main series wrapped up everything to such and extent new things couldn't exist.

So, you'd rather have doors closed for you then? There's no such thing as being 'too definitive'. Especially in fiction. Gotta think outside the box, sometimes. It's called creativity. You keep pointing to that one example of RTOJ, and I and others keep pointing out examples of how it could work, and we keep going in circles. It could've been done.

Hell, in Dr Who, I've lost count at how many times the Dr has regenerated, but they somehow manage to find new ways to keep it going. Probably a little creativity. So, you know, never say never.

Anyhow, this is the last I'm saying on it. We're not getting anywhere.

 

[JD]

The Empire and the Darksiders are the one true enemy of SW. Alien Invader enemies don't work and nothing in the OT indicated there were other villains in the Galaxy beyond the Empire and the Sith.

We've gotten Star Wars stories over the years without The Empire or Dark Siders, so they don't have to be the only possible bad guys.

And after 30 years there'd be no major Imperial Remnants left to fight.

Sure there could be, even 80 years after WWII there are still Nazi, and for a more maybe closer analogy would be modern day Russia where even 30 after the fall of the USSR there are still people around who are loyal to it, and want to bring it back.

Lucas said that the Prophecy that Anakin fulfilled was the permanent destruction of the Dark Side itself, as in there'd be no new Darksiders in any form after ROTJ. Thereby robbing the Sequels of the one true enemy of SW.

That might have been his intention when he wrote RoTJ, but that doesn't mean he couldn't change his mind or that Disney had to follow that once they took over.
And all the movies said was that he would defeat the Sith, and the Sith are not all there is to the Dark Side.

 

[Anwar]

We've gotten Star Wars stories over the years without The Empire or Dark Siders, so they don't have to be the only possible bad guys.

And in those stories, those villains are never able to be the kind of threat you could build a movie series around. The villains of the Sequels would need to be on the same level as the Empire and the Sith to be worth watching.

Sure there could be, even 80 years after WWII there are still Nazi, and for a more maybe closer analogy would be modern day Russia where even 30 after the fall of the USSR there are still people around who are loyal to it, and want to bring it back.

Are those Neo-Nazis anywhere near the threat Nazi Germany were? No, they're insignificant. And Modern Day Russia wasn't 100% dismantled from the old Soviet Union by the US after the Cold War, unlike what the Rebels/New Republic would have done to the Empire afterwards.

That might have been his intention when he wrote RoTJ, but that doesn't mean he couldn't change his mind or that Disney had to follow that once they took over.
And all the movies said was that he would defeat the Sith, and the Sith are not all there is to the Dark Side.

Disney DID have to follow that. That's why there were complaints that there were any new Darksiders in the Sequels at all. That their very existence, and not just Palpatine surviving, "Ruined Anakin's sacrifice".

 

[Gaith]

Then the "fans" never would have gone to see the Sequel movie in the first place.

If these "fans" you speak of couldn't handle an awesome female heroine, that would have been their problem, and they'd be a tiny, pesky minority the rest of us sensible people could ignore. With Rey, Disney/Lucasfilm found a terrific, charismatic actress, and gave her three terrible scripts and a near-incoherent character to play. That's their problem, which, since they own the property is thus also our problem.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Then Lucas should have stuck to his guns instead of doing failed attempts at expansion if he saw it as such a limited thing. And he should've done his own sequels in the early 90s

At the dawn of the 90s, Lucas was not certain he would ever return to Star Wars--a period before testing FX for the purpose of eventually using the tech on what would become the Special Editions later that decade. At the time, he was content to allow Zahn and Dark Horse keep the IP alive with two major, post-ROTJ series in print. Next, the idea of producing a sequel series in that period assumes all of the "big three" actors would be willing to return to the series. Harrison Ford was on record saying with the end of ROTJ's production, he was "glad" he would not have to see the Han Solo costume again (always returning to Indiana Jones because it was his), and had become a very big star, so it was doubtful he would have agreed to have any involvement with a Star Wars production in the early 90s, when he worked so hard to shed his association with Solo.
Without Ford, a SW sequel series at that time would be dead in the water.

No, if Star Wars had been expanded right then Luke wouldn't have to be the lynchpin of it all. That's the problem.

Again, you are trying to rewrite or erase Lucas' intent: Luke was the focus of ANH and its sequels, not expanding it tell stories he did not conceive or care to explore. Once again, that was not the purpose of his modern myth--the polar opposite of other franchises that either lack focus or have no end in sight.

 

[theenglish]

Where I take issue with many more recent works is not only just an apparent, but an outright stated, intent to place diversity at the forefront of the decision making process. I disagree with that on a fundamental level, as I deem ensuring diversity as among the least important aspects of a work because I view race, gender, etc. as largely irrelevant in many contexts.

Inclusion and diversity is an important concept throughout society in removing systemic racism from established systems. If one is saying that they don't want that as an essential factor in hiring and retention practices then they are saying they support a racist and sexist system regardless if they acknowledge their own racism or not. This is an unfortunate truth of the world at the moment. (And it is an argument to be taken up by someone in the NZ forum.)

I would say that flawed creations are flawed in spite of their diversity, not because of it.

A very clear example is the 2015 Fantastic Four movie. Prior to its release there was a huge outcry because Johnny was played by a black man and Sue played by a Latina. All the racist tropes were laid out during discussions on this board. By the time the movie was released, the casting was the least problematic thing about it. There was plenty to criticize in spite of the fact that some really great actors were cast in the roles.

 

[Anwar]

If these "fans" you speak of couldn't handle an awesome female heroine, that would have been their problem, and they'd be a tiny, pesky minority the rest of us sensible people could ignore. With Rey, Disney/Lucasfilm found a terrific, charismatic actress, and gave her three terrible scripts and a near-incoherent character to play. That's their problem, which, since they own the property is thus also our problem.

You're forgetting how when the "fans" saw Rey and Finn in the first teasers the reaction was "STAR WARS IS SJW NOW!"

They had no interest in new characters, they were hoping the Sequels would just be about the OT characters as Seniors.

Next, the idea of producing a sequel series in that period assumes all of the "big three" actors would be willing to return to the series. Harrison Ford was on record saying with the end of ROTJ's production, he was "glad" he would not have to see the Han Solo costume again (always returning to Indiana Jones because it was his), and had become a very big star, so it was doubtful he would have agreed to have any involvement with a Star Wars production in the early 90s, when he worked so hard to shed his association with Solo.
Without Ford, a SW sequel series at that time would be dead in the water.

Then just do what TFA did and kill Han. Easy.

Again, you are trying to rewrite or erase Lucas' intent: Luke was the focus of ANH and its sequels, not expanding it tell stories he did not conceive or care to explore. Once again, that was not the purpose of his modern myth--the polar opposite of other franchises that either lack focus or have no end in sight.

Which is why SW was inherently limited and killed potential for real stories after ROTJ.

 

[fireproof78]

What's the oft lionized storyline post ROTJ?

Thrawn.

Bring back the Empire.

 

[Gaith]

You're forgetting how when the "fans" saw Rey and Finn in the first teasers the reaction was "STAR WARS IS SJW NOW!"

Which part of "they'd be a tiny, pesky minority the rest of us sensible people could ignore" was unclear?

I don't know about you, but my life is too short, and my time too valuable, to fret over the trolling of online trolls.

 

[BillJ]

I still don’t see how a new movie destroys the legacy of the original?

 

[fireproof78]

The magazine articles were harder to ignore.

 

[fireproof78]

I still don’t see how a new movie destroys the legacy of the original?

That's my question too. Still trying to figure out what's destroyed?

 

[BillJ]

That's my question too. Still trying to figure out what's destroyed?

All I know, is that being largely dissatisfied with current Star Trek, my TOS and TNG Blu-rays are still sitting on my shelf.

Neither JJ Abrams nor Alex Kurtzman have broken into my house and stolen them.

 

[fireproof78]

All I know, is that being largely dissatisfied with current Star Trek, my TOS and TNG Blu-rays are still sitting on my shelf.

Neither JJ Abrams nor Alex Kurtzman have broken into my house and stolen them.

Not yet...

 

[Gaith]

I still don’t see how a new movie destroys the legacy of the original?

A new movie can wreck the legacy of the original within said new movie. I think TFA/TLJ wrecked Luke's character in those two movies, and the now-canon backstory they established, but yes, I can still watch the OT and put the ST out of sight and out of mind.

Neither JJ Abrams nor Alex Kurtzman have broken into my house and stolen them.

No, but Disney won't let you watch the Willow series anymore.

 

[BillJ]

I think TFA/TLJ wrecked Luke's character in those two movies, and the now-canon backstory they established...

Personally, I had no issues with Luke's backstory in the Sequel Trilogy.

No, but Disney won't let you watch the Willow series anymore

This implies I wanted to watch it, in the first place.

 

[fireproof78]

Personally, I had no issues with Luke's backstory in the Sequel Trilogy.

Same.

So much for "wrecked."

Obi-Wan was wrecked in ROTJ too. SMH.

 

[USS Firefly]

A new movie can wreck the legacy of the original within said new movie. I think TFA/TLJ wrecked Luke's character in those two movies, and the now-canon backstory they established, but yes, I can still watch the OT and put the ST out of sight and out of mind.

I agree with you, they did destroy Luke's character. It was so unnecessary

 

[Nerys Myk]

Just don't watch that movie then.

 

[fireproof78]

Just don't watch that movie then.

It's amazing after all these years people still dwell on something that supposedly destroyed a character yet ignore the existence of more positive approaches to media.

I'll reiterate what Bill said-surprisingly Abrams has not stolen and destroyed my OT copies.

I'm one step ahead of you, Abrams!