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Why is toxic fandom destroying everything?

You're forgetting how when the "fans" saw Rey and Finn in the first teasers the reaction was "STAR WARS IS SJW NOW!"

They had no interest in new characters, they were hoping the Sequels would just be about the OT characters as Seniors.



Then just do what TFA did and kill Han. Easy.


No creator / successful businessperson is going to kill off the Han character in the early 1990s, and no post-ROTJ film was ever going to be produced with Ford unwilling to return to the role at that time. Star Wars did not have an obligation to continue no matter what. True creativity is not about keeping a product on the conveyor belt
Which is why SW was inherently limited and killed potential for real stories after ROTJ.
Nonsense. There is nothing limiting about a story designed to have a beginning, middle and end. That was the OT. It was not the MCU, where the product--of declining quality to a significant degree--is cranked out morning, noon and night.
 
No creator / successful businessperson is going to kill off the Han character in the early 1990s, and no post-ROTJ film was ever going to be produced with Ford unwilling to return to the role at that time.

One with courage would, just like killing him during the OT would've been acceptable and frankly preferable.

Nonsense. There is nothing limiting about a story designed to have a beginning, middle and end.

By that logic, Tolkien should have stopped with the Hobbit and not written LOTR after
 
I always felt one of the biggest sins Rise of Skywalker commits is bringing back Palpatine.

It's not that there can never be problems or evil again in Star Wars, it's that just nonchalantly reintroducing Palpatine through "somehow he came back" diminishes Anakin's/Vader's redemption in Return of the Jedi and screws with his arc about "bringing balance to the Force." I always liked the idea that it speaks to the Jedi's arrogance in the pre-Empire era that they misinterpret the prophecy, and Anakin brings "balance" but just not in the way Jedi thought.

Reintroducing Palpatine in Episode IX, in a really stupid way just to cackle, makes Anankin's sacrifice seem all for naught. I might feel differently about it if Palpatine's return made any sense, but since it doesn't, I think that colors it.

The bigger problem with the sequel trilogy (and arguably Star Wars on Disney+) is that they're constantly stuck in the formulas of the original IP. Plucky outgunned rebels, fighting fascist military elements, while being aided by good wizards with blue laser swords fighting bad wizards with red laser swords.

Moreover, contrary to the conventional wisdom of some fans, I think the problem with The Last Jedi is NOT that it strays too far away from the fundamental elements of Star Wars. The problem with The Last Jedi is that it doesn't go far enough in challenging them. To me, for all of the talk about Ryan Johnson wanting to open the story up to new possibilities, I think he almost goes there, but pulls back in the ending and reverts back to Jedi = good and Sith = bad.

I always thought the more interesting ending for The Last Jedi should have been Rey considering and possibly taking up Kylo Ren's offer to start over and throw off everything about the Jedi and Sith. What if she accepts and the third movie is about this new thing that tries to go a "third way" while being confronted by elements of the old orders (i.e., Jedi, Sith, Resistance, First Order, etc.), and you give the audience a dilemma of whether Rey and Ben are right, and everything we thought was "good" actually needs to change?
 
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and you give the audience a dilemma of whether Rey and Ben are right, and everything we thought was "good" actually needs to change?
Doubt anyone will go that far because of Lucas' assertion that the Jedi view of the Force is essentially correct. Their methods might go astray but not their actual views.
 
Doubt anyone will go that far because of Lucas' assertion that the Jedi view of the Force is essentially correct. Their methods might go astray but not their actual views.
I think a very valid interpretation of the prequel trilogy is that it shows how the Jedi's view of the Force is just as flawed as the Sith's, and their view on how emotions within the Force should be handled is in some ways directly responsible for Anakin's turn to the Dark Side.

Anakin's love for Padme, and how that conflicts with the Jedi's view of how emotional relationships should be handled, opens the door to Palpatine's manipulation. The idea of severing connections and resisting loving relationships, especially for a person who was a child that has no real family, was just a recipe for disaster.
 
think a very valid interpretation of the prequel trilogy is that it shows how the Jedi's view of the Force is just as flawed as the Sith's, and their view on how emotions within the Force should be handled is in some ways directly responsible for Anakin's turn to the Dark Side.
I agree it's valid.

I also know Lucas' view and there's some reticence to challenge that view.

I thought the prime Jedi mural could show a different perspective but it really didn't shift much.
 
Lucas said that the Prophecy that Anakin fulfilled was the permanent destruction of the Dark Side itself, as in there'd be no new Darksiders in any form after ROTJ. Thereby robbing the Sequels of the one true enemy of SW.
Sounds extremely iffy. Cite your source, please.
 
Just a few comments about some things in this thread:

Much of the criticism for SW, BSG, and BB were about specific creative choices. People discussed those choices in depth and provided legitimate reasons. The only possible exception I can think of being the criticism of Moore gender swapping Starbuck and Boomer.
So it's not "legitimate" to prefer that gender swapping doesn't happen? :vulcan:

I find it to be incredibly offensive that seemingly any criticism directed towards things I think are poorly written are just generally not good is not judged on the merits of the criticism, but almost entirely based on my sexual orientation, gender and race.
Or perceived traits. Someone once pontificated that I must be an elderly female Republican living in New York City just because I loathe the nuTrek movies.

They got the female part right. The rest is wildly inaccurate and completely ridiculous, not to mention childish. I have numerous reasons for not liking those movies. This "You don't like what I like, so you're evil!" attitude is so tiresome.

Me: I don't like the way the Klingons look now.
Other: Oh why is that?
Me: *describes issue with continuity, not looking like past Klingons
Other: That's why? That's the reason?
Me: Yes... they don't like Klingons.
Other: Sure. It has nothing to do with the show having a black female lead, right?
Me: What? No?
Other: Right, all of a sudden now the Klingons are a problem? Isn't it odd?
Me: But... this was the show where they don't like right.
Other: *proceeds to call me racist

I'm tired of it.
Reminds me of people calling me racist for not liking genderswapped Kynes in the nuDune movie. My objection to that character has never been about race.
 
I'd like to add that this is the first time in 20+ years on this board that I've seen people dive into the conversation with such (almost) religious fervor to take such a specific side in a thread. Normally our discussions are so much more nuanced than this.

Is anyone else appreciating that in the thread entitled "why is toxic fandom destroying everything" that this is happening?

</this is me just waiting for the mods to step in.>
 
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Sounds extremely iffy. Cite your source, please.


He says that the Dark Side itself is the imbalance that Anakin was prophecized to destroy, meaning if they stayed true to that then that means there could be no new Darksiders EVER after ROTJ.

Thereby crippling the Sequels, because Darksiders are the one true enemy of SW and nothing else works.
 
I've noticed that it happened a couple of times in the last decade or so, that I found myself liking tv shows/movies that seem to be vocally hated, get bad audience ratings on platforms like "Rotten Tomatoes", or which are at least very controversially received among fans.

For example, I absolutely enjoyed the SW sequel trilogy. I would have appreciated a bit more political backstory to how the New Order could suddenly pop up, but even without that, the ST was imo absoltely nice entertainment (and since I still can't stand the PT at all, the more "mature" tone of the ST felt like a return to the strength of the OT to me). I also found Luke's disillisionment plausible and generally okay in Ep.VIII, and I liked the slightly more political angle. But then, I'm not a hardcore SW fan, I don't care about the EU or animated shows, it's just mere light entertainment for me, so that I'm not deeply invested in the characters.

I also liked S1&2 of PIC, and the latest new season of Doctor Who (I was actually surprised to learn today that apparently, it gets a lot of hate -- though I feel it's a huge improvement compared to the Chibnall era, albeit not yet quite as strong as it used to be).

When I see the terrible viewership ratings on platforms like Rotten Tomatoes and the like, I wonder if they are really a reflection of a larger discontentment among the fans, or is it just a small, but very vocal minority that somehow manages to review bomb these shows?

And then, there is that faction that seems to complain about "wokeness" or "SJW" all the time a black or queer character just walks through the screen... and another faction on the other end of the spectrum that loves to pick fights with them.

I have to admit, the thought that the writers have an agenda and want to lecture me on "diversity", and a kneejerk rejection of this perceived intent, sometimes crossed my mind. On the other side, there are many "diverse" characters I immensely enjoy, so I don't know for sure why it irks me in some cases, but I'm fine with it in others -- well possible it has to do with the quality of the show. When a story and character is well written, accessible and likable, that thought doesn't come up... but when I have an issue with the way such a character is presented, I wonder if the writers sacrificed good storytelling just to make a political point, or felt making this point is more important. Maybe this suspicion is unfair, as I don't think any writer ever deliberately delivers bad writing, but the thought is there.

As for the larger topic of "diversity", I generally appreciate it when previously underrepresented minorities get more visible, but I also can't deny that I'm a straight white male, and I only want to know so much about minority issues in my entertainment, before it gets tiresome. When the problems of characters that I can't relate to, are presented in a manner that isn't relatable for me, then I feel bored or even annoyed.

Now does that mean I can only relate to straight white male characters? Not at all. But I guess there must be some universally human relatability about a minority character that grips my attention.

It's imo a really bad trend that politically extreme people on both sides of the spectrum reduce identity to gender, ethnicity and skin color -- while minority characters are always really strong when there is much more to their identity, which is universally relatable. Take i.e. Benjamin Sisko, who's not just black, but also a father, a widower, a cook, chosen by "gods" and so on. What was Adira on DSC besides being non-binary? My impression was: Not much.

Also, I think balance plays a role. It's really a strong message, when one or two "outsider" characters, like Spock or Data, are in an ensemble cast of a majority of "mainstream majority" characters, yet are fully accepted, integrated and valued -- more than when basically every character represents a minority, I guess.

So on the bottom line ... am I a racist or biased against queers? I don't know, maybe to some extent, unintentionally and subconsciously. Maybe we all are. But I try my best not to act on my prejudices or biases, to avoid being disrespectful towards people who don't deserve that. In my entertainment, however, I prefer to be entertained, rather than being lectured.
 
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