Why is ST09's altered timeline a problem?

[I-Am-Zim]

I see no reason why a prequel or origins story couldn't be done and remain consistent with the "prime" timeline or universe or whatever.

As a example...Kirk spoke about Mallory's father helping him get into the academy. We could have seen that, instead of Pike being the mentor figure,
(which was never really the case).

It seems lazy to me, it seems as if they could have written a story in keeping with established canon, just as exciting, just as entertaining.
But someone wanted to do different things, things that wouldn't be in keeping with established ST history or canon or premises.

Wait. So it seems lazy to you that they didn't rewrite a story conforming to established canon?

It WAS lazy that they decided to take their origin stories in a different direction?

Oookay

Yep. I agree with SchwEnt on this one. It seems to me that they took the easy way out. Instead of employing a little bit more imagination and creativity and producing a true origin story about the characters that we are familiar with, they decided to jettison all that came before and take the characters in a "different direction". That approach took little effort or imagination and the end result shows the lack of creativity. To me it was laziness. They could have made a movie that conformed to established canon. It wouldn't have been easy, but it could have been done. And been exciting and flashy with lots of stuff going boom and green girls everywhere. Just more interesting, IMO.

 

[Greg Cox]

As a example...Kirk spoke about Mallory's father helping him get into the academy. We could have seen that, instead of Pike being the mentor figure,
(which was never really the case).

".

But Mallory wasn't the first captain of the Enterprise. Why bother dragging in a whole other character (whom most people have never heard of) when you can just rework Pike, who is much cooler and more important?

Using Pike as Kirk's mentor was simply more efficient. It made a for stronger, more dramatic story.

Why clutter up the story just to accomodate some ancient trivia?

 

[stonester1]

To Zim: It wasn't lazy. For better or worse, what they wanted was total freedom. Now let's see what they do with it.

 

[Warped9]

Okay, just to avoid any more pointless debates about what happened to the old timeline, why don't we just stipulate that the new versions are NOT the same characters as the old versions. Why does that matter?

It's still STAR TREK, just different.

Fan or critic the point is it is a different timeline. Hell, it's an alternate universe just like the Mirror universe was an alternate universe.

ST09 doesn't corrupt the original continuity. That's still intact because this is in no way connected to it.

 

[Greg Cox]

To Zim: It wasn't lazy. For better or worse, what they wanted was total freedom. Now let's see what they do with it.

Exactly. The real purpose of rebooting the timeline wasn't to change the past, it was to free up the future.

Now we have no idea what will happen. Kirk might not killed by Soran. Spock and Uhura might get married. Chekov might get eaten by space worms.

The new movies are not stuck retreading the past.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think Paramount wanted total freedom too.

 

[Brian]

Hasn't Star Trek already established that we live in a multiverse? See TNG:"Parallels" for a prime illustration of this.

They are the same characters, same "people" if you want to take it that seriously, reacting to different influences. Over time, the differing influences can make them behave very differently, such as we have seen in the Mirror Universe.

But part of the point of ST09 was to put the characters as closely to where they are "supposed" to be at the end of the film. (I believe this was treated in the novelization.. Spock Prime considered the huge coincidence of running into young James T. during his exile, and postulated that the universe was self-correcting in some way.) Sure, they have had some different influences in the 25 years prior to the film, but they end up as the right people on the right ship in the (mostly) right universe.

If you can't accept it as that, then I suggest you don't watch any future Star Trek films. Because that's what they're going to be about. The same characters, but with new situations never before referenced in canon. Or the same characters in familiar situations (Khan, maybe), but where things play out differently.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Okay, just to avoid any more pointless debates about what happened to the old timeline, why don't we just stipulate that the new versions are NOT the same characters as the old versions. Why does that matter?

It's still STAR TREK, just different.

Sounds good to me.

To Zim: It wasn't lazy. For better or worse, what they wanted was total freedom. Now let's see what they do with it.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I think it was lazy. To create a story that was both exciting and new while conforming to previously established canon and continuity would have been a monumental undertaking. I have to admit that it would have been extremely difficult. However, there are certainly creative and imaginative writers out there who could have pulled it off. I think that idea was an overwhelming proposition for the writing team working on STXI and to avoid the hassle, they took the lazy way out and sidestepped the whole canon debate by creating the alternate reality/universe/timeline plot device. That's just the way I feel about it. I was expecting more and was very disapointed with what I got. However, I am curious to see if the next movie is any better as far as story and plot are concerned.

 

[Warped9]

To Zim: It wasn't lazy. For better or worse, what they wanted was total freedom. Now let's see what they do with it.

It was a conscious decision and I can see merit in it. In fact I'm rather glad they didn't try to tell the original continuity's origin story because I'm reasonably sure they'd have fucked that up.

That said I can live with a reboot idea. I just wish it were a substantially better one.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Okay, just to avoid any more pointless debates about what happened to the old timeline, why don't we just stipulate that the new versions are NOT the same characters as the old versions. Why does that matter?

It's still STAR TREK, just different.

Fan or critic the point is it is a different timeline. Hell, it's an alternate universe just like the Mirror universe was an alternate universe.

ST09 doesn't corrupt the original continuity. That's still intact because this is in no way connected to it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Okay, just to avoid any more pointless debates about what happened to the old timeline, why don't we just stipulate that the new versions are NOT the same characters as the old versions. Why does that matter?

It's still STAR TREK, just different.

Sounds good to me.

To Zim: It wasn't lazy. For better or worse, what they wanted was total freedom. Now let's see what they do with it.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I think it was lazy. To create a story that was both exciting and new while conforming to previously established canon and continuity would have been a monumental undertaking. I have to admit that it would have been extremely difficult. However, there are certainly creative and imaginative writers out there who could have pulled it off. I think that idea was an overwhelming proposition for the writing team working on STXI and to avoid the hassle, they took the lazy way out and sidestepped the whole canon debate by creating the alternate reality/universe/timeline plot device. That's just the way I feel about it. I was expecting more and was very disapointed with what I got. However, I am curious to see if the next movie is any better as far as story and plot are concerned.

Wouldn't it be a game of filling in the cracks if the TOS characters are to be used. And IIRC, thats what Paramout wanted. Where is the "drama" in filling in the cracks?

 

[Greg Cox]

To Mr. Cox: Or this...how about let fans think whatever they wish, since there is no definitive answer everyone isn't going to accept?

.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to lay down the law or anything. I was just arguing that, as a practical matter, it really doesn't matter since we're never going to see the old timeline again anyway.

(Except in the books, of course!)

Ultimately, I think we're bumping into two very different sets of priorities here. There are those who think that preserving the old continuity has some sort of intrinsic value. And there are those of us who find the idea of starting over again kind of liberating.

The old canon is dead! Vive la revolution!

 

[stonester1]

To Mr. Cox: Or this...how about let fans think whatever they wish, since there is no definitive answer everyone isn't going to accept?

.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to lay down the law or anything. I was just arguing that it really doesn't matter since we're never going to see the old timeline again anyway.

(Except in the books, of course!)

Yeah, I know. It's just that...the nitpicky anality that I see among elements of us Trek fans I find...annoying. So I don't care to cater to it.

Shoutouts in details presented in stories that writers do (including the writers of this film), GREAT STUFF. But the "PINE IS NOT KIRK" stuff? Pass.

And yes, the enlightened fans are still enjoying the established TrekU (and the Nu-U, too, once the powers that be GTFOOTW).

 

[John200]

If I don't like something entertainment wise I tend to ignore it.

That works for me.

Can't argue with that.

Damn you!!!

Flawless logic.

 

[Set Harth]

The fact that novels will continue to be written for the original timeline is all the proof I need that the Abramsverse timeline did not overwrite it.

There is also Star Trek Online and its "Path to 2409".

 

[stonester1]

Yes, yes, it will be the first MMORPG I will be trying.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The fact that novels will continue to be written for the original timeline is all the proof I need that the Abramsverse timeline did not overwrite it.

There is also Star Trek Online and its "Path to 2409".

Though I'm still wondering how Spock Prime is aware of events that have occured up to 22 years after he jumped universes.

Yes, yes, it will be the first MMORPG I will be trying.

Yes, it is fun and their doing the first major expansion patch to it starting the 18th so their will be lots of more fun goodies.

 

[Gojira]

My only problem with the movie is that it has created a big debate between the movie creating a Parallel Universe or an Altered Original Timeline.

Many people argue that it takes place in a Parallel Universe while in my humble opinion is that what we see on the screen favors an Altered Original Timeline point of view.

I don't mind either perspective actually I just wish the writers would have been more clear about it either way!

They seem to have gone out of their way to defend and explain how the movie takes place in an Parallel Universe I just wish those explanations had been in the movie itself!!

 

[Set Harth]

Though I'm still wondering how Spock Prime is aware of events that have occured up to 22 years after he jumped universes.

He isn't. Spock Prime isn't around for those events.

 

[Nerys Myk]

My only problem with the movie is that it has created a big debate between the movie creating a Parallel Universe or an Altered Original Timeline.

Many people argue that it takes place in a Parallel Universe while in my humble opinion is that what we see on the screen favors an Altered Original Timeline point of view.

I don't mind either perspective actually I just wish the writers would have been more clear about it either way!

They seem to have gone out of their way to defend and explain how the movie takes place in an Parallel Universe I just wish those explanations had been in the movie itself!!

Not sure how they could do any more than they in the movie where they say its an Alternate Reality. And thats was just for our benefit.