Why is ST09's altered timeline a problem?

[Greg Cox]

As a example...Kirk spoke about Mallory's father helping him get into the academy. We could have seen that, instead of Pike being the mentor figure,
(which was never really the case).

".

But Mallory wasn't the first captain of the Enterprise. Why bother dragging in a whole other character (whom most people have never heard of) when you can just rework Pike, who is much cooler and more important?

Using Pike as Kirk's mentor was simply more efficient. It made a for stronger, more dramatic story.

Why clutter up the story just to accomodate some ancient trivia?

But why do Star Trek at all then? They could have made up their own "much cooler" characters and spaceships.

Because there's more to STAR TREK than just minor bits of trivia. STAR TREK is about Kirk and Spock and the crew of the Starship Enterprise, having amazing sci-fi adventures in Star Trek's positive vision of the future.

Nitpicky stuff like "Mallory" is not essential to the basic idea. And would have just got in the way. It was a movie, not an encyclopedia entry.

Just think of it as a new adaptation of STAR TREK, like all the umpteen versions of TARZAN or DRACULA. A ZORRO movie doesn't stop becoming ZORRO if they tinker with the details a little for dramatic effect. And a movie about Kirk and the Enterprise is still STAR TREK even if tweaks the continuity for dramatic effect.

Combining Mallory and Pike into one character was just good storytelling.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Either Spock passed into a Parallel Universe, or he passed into the Alternate Reality created by Nero, Stardate 2233.04.

Yep. I prefer the theory that Spock and Nero entered a parallel universe. One very similar but with significant fundamental differences that can't be reconciled simply by Nero's incursion causing a timeline split.

Evidence: Spock notices differences that cannot be fixed between events that have transpired and events as he remembered them.

Agreed. I'm all for the alternate reality/timeline/universe theory. It keeps "MY" Star Trek fully intact while allowing the Abramsverse to do its own thing without affecting the Prime universe at all.

If a linear model comes into play, aka "Altered Timeline", then basic Cause and Effect creates a Paradox.

True. But it's been done before. In fiction, anything is possible.

This Paradox is a physical impossibility, therefore leaving the truth.

Once again, anything is possible in fiction. Besides, a paradox is only impossible on paper. There's no way to physically test the theory at this time. So my mind is still open to other possibilities.

 

[Shazam!]

Just think of it as a new adaptation of STAR TREK, like all the umpteen versions of TARZAN or DRACULA

Because its earliest incarnation is infinitely superior to all that followed?

 

[Greg Cox]

Just think of it as a new adaptation of STAR TREK, like all the umpteen versions of TARZAN or DRACULA

Because its earliest incarnation is infinitely superior to all that followed?

So no one is ever allowed to deviate from it, even in the smallest, most insignificant details?

Heck, people rework, recast, and reimagine Shakespeare. I've seen A MIDSUMMER'S NIGHT DREAM staged as a 1950s musical and MACBETH staged as a western.

Why should STAR TREK be more sacred than HAMLET? Or THE LONE RANGER for that matter?

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

these are the same characters, only in different circumstances

To folks just tuning in; this isn't a fact. Please do not treat it as such.

They have the same names, the same jobs, the same personality traits, the same quirks, they look the same, and the people writing them say they're the same characters. It's as close to fact as fiction is ever going to be.

 

[Shazam!]

So no one is ever allowed to deviate from it, even in the smallest, most insignificant details?

 

[Shazam!]

They have the same names, the same jobs, the same personality traits, the same quirks, they look the same, and the people writing them say they're the same characters.

I wouldn't trust those guys as far as I could throw them.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

They have the same names, the same jobs, the same personality traits, the same quirks, they look the same, and the people writing them say they're the same characters.

I wouldn't trust those guys as far as I could throw them.

Good for you. My point still stands.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Because there's more to STAR TREK than just minor bits of trivia. STAR TREK is about Kirk and Spock and the crew of the Starship Enterprise, having amazing sci-fi adventures in Star Trek's positive vision of the future.

Nitpicky stuff like "Mallory" is not essential to the basic idea. And would have just got in the way. It was a movie, not an encyclopedia entry.

Just think of it as a new adaptation of STAR TREK, like all the umpteen versions of TARZAN or DRACULA. A ZORRO movie doesn't stop becoming ZORRO if they tinker with the details a little for dramatic effect. And a movie about Kirk and the Enterprise is still STAR TREK even if tweaks the continuity for dramatic effect.

Exactly so.

This is a movie about Kirk and Spock and the crew of the Enterprise. That's what I care about. All of this trivial about timelines and the old continuity and the godblessed "Star Trek universe" - that's what I "don't give a shit about."

 

[muzzleflash]

these are the same characters, only in different circumstances

To folks just tuning in; this isn't a fact. Please do not treat it as such.

They have the same names, the same jobs, the same personality traits, the same quirks, they look the same, and the people writing them say they're the same characters. It's as close to fact as fiction is ever going to be.

Exactly. Since these characters do not actually exist, the only thing that defines them is what you've mentioned.

 

[Greg Cox]

So no one is ever allowed to deviate from it, even in the smallest, most insignificant details?

Hah! Good one!

I was thinking of the "Mallory" thing, actually, but blowing up Vulcan was a good way to demonstrate that all bets were off and the old continuity had been chucked out out the airlock. Which is want this movie needed to do if they wanted to chart a new course for the franchise.

And, as Diogenes pointed out several posts ago, better a few trashed planets than a reset button . . . .

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Hell, James Bond just got twenty-five years younger and a lot cooler. Didn't bother me a bit.

 

[stonester1]

Too right.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I always hated Vulcan anyway. It obstructs my view of Venus.

 

[Gojira]

If they were the same original characters, then that would mean that the events of the altered timeline have in fact erased and overwritten all that we know of the events of the prime universe. I prefer to believe that the Abramsverse is a completely separate alternate universe in and of itself and not connected to the Prime at all other than possibly OldSpock - if he is ineed from the prime, that is. For STXI to be an alternate reality/universe, these must, by definition, be different people. The original characters we know are still in their/our universe totally unaware of the existence of the other versions of themselves in the Abramsverse while the NuTrek versions are in the Abramsverse doing their thing unaware of their counterparts trotting along in the Prime Universe. They are separate people if you believe the alternate reality plot. That is a fact - at least according to the writers.

If these are different people then for me the movie loses its emotional impact. Spock Prime knows the Vulcan he was raised on still exists so being forced to watch its destruction really isn't as bad as it would be if it was his planet Vulcan he was seeing destroyed. Nero seems to think that it is Spock's planet that he is destroying and not some other Vulcan from some other universe.

Despite the fact that the authors want this to be a paralell universe story I have a difficult time reconciling it with what is seen on the screen. I will accept the paralell universe theory because I did like the movie but it is very hard for me to reconcile that theory with what I see on the screen.

 

[Shazam!]

My point still stands.

The one were you genuinely believe you can actually be another person by adopting a few superficial similarities?

 

[stonester1]

I don't think they were superficially similar. In fact, I think the DIFFERENCES were the superficial element. That's why I was sold on them as the characters.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

If they were the same original characters, then that would mean that the events of the altered timeline have in fact erased and overwritten all that we know of the events of the prime universe. I prefer to believe that the Abramsverse is a completely separate alternate universe in and of itself and not connected to the Prime at all other than possibly OldSpock - if he is ineed from the prime, that is. For STXI to be an alternate reality/universe, these must, by definition, be different people. The original characters we know are still in their/our universe totally unaware of the existence of the other versions of themselves in the Abramsverse while the NuTrek versions are in the Abramsverse doing their thing unaware of their counterparts trotting along in the Prime Universe. They are separate people if you believe the alternate reality plot. That is a fact - at least according to the writers.

If these are different people then for me the movie loses its emotional impact. Spock Prime knows the Vulcan he was raised on still exists so being forced to watch its destruction really isn't as bad as it would be if it was his planet Vulcan he was seeing destroyed. Nero seems to think that it is Spock's planet that he is destroying and not some other Vulcan from some other universe.

Despite the fact that the authors want this to be a paralell universe story I have a difficult time reconciling it with what is seen on the screen. I will accept the paralell universe theory because I did like the movie but it is very hard for me to reconcile that theory with what I see on the screen.

Exactly! I agree with you. It is difficult to understand why OldSpock was so "emotionally compromised" by the destruction of an alternate reality version of Vulcan when he supposedly knew his own Vulcan was still alive and well in the other universe. It is because of the alternate reality/universe premise that I don't care about these characters. The fact that they are alternate reality versions of the TOS characters and not the actual TOS characters I know completely negates the possibility of me giving a crap about them or anything that happens to them. Now, if this movie took place in the original TOS universe, and TOS-Spock's Vulcan was actually destroyed, then his emotional response could be justified and I would have felt sympathy for him. I simply can't feel any emotion for these characters because I know they are not the ones that I have been a fan of for most of my life.

Edit: This has absolutely nothing to do with the re-casting of the TOS characters. The fact that different actors are playing the characters is of no consequence. Even if it were an origin story dealing with the original characters, younger actors would have to have been used. I have no problem with that.

Just for anyone interested, this is a link to a thread I posted on startrekmovie.com back in April of 2009. Clicky

It addresses the "Linear Vs. Dimensional" time travel issue with a theory of my own. Now, I posted that thread before I saw the movie, so there may be some errors. So bear that in mind when reading, if you decide to check it out. I just noticed a mathematical error concerning Pike's age. But I'm sure some of you will pick up on it anyway.

 

[Brian]

Does it change anything for anyone to view the "true" timeline as being the timeline of Spock Prime's life? (Which includes two trips through the TOS years...)

It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[Gojira]

If they were the same original characters, then that would mean that the events of the altered timeline have in fact erased and overwritten all that we know of the events of the prime universe. I prefer to believe that the Abramsverse is a completely separate alternate universe in and of itself and not connected to the Prime at all other than possibly OldSpock - if he is ineed from the prime, that is. For STXI to be an alternate reality/universe, these must, by definition, be different people. The original characters we know are still in their/our universe totally unaware of the existence of the other versions of themselves in the Abramsverse while the NuTrek versions are in the Abramsverse doing their thing unaware of their counterparts trotting along in the Prime Universe. They are separate people if you believe the alternate reality plot. That is a fact - at least according to the writers.

If these are different people then for me the movie loses its emotional impact. Spock Prime knows the Vulcan he was raised on still exists so being forced to watch its destruction really isn't as bad as it would be if it was his planet Vulcan he was seeing destroyed. Nero seems to think that it is Spock's planet that he is destroying and not some other Vulcan from some other universe.

Despite the fact that the authors want this to be a paralell universe story I have a difficult time reconciling it with what is seen on the screen. I will accept the paralell universe theory because I did like the movie but it is very hard for me to reconcile that theory with what I see on the screen.

Exactly! I agree with you. It is difficult to understand why OldSpock was so "emotionally compromised" by the destruction of an alternate reality version of Vulcan when he supposedly knew his own Vulcan was still alive and well in the other universe. It is because of the alternate reality/universe premise that I don't care about these characters. The fact that they are alternate reality versions of the TOS characters and not the actual TOS characters I know completely negates the possibility of me giving a crap about them or anything that happens to them. Now, if this movie took place in the original TOS universe, and TOS-Spock's Vulcan was actually destroyed, then his emotional response could be justified and I would have felt sympathy for him. I simply can't feel any emotion for these characters because I know they are not the ones that I have been a fan of for most of my life.

Edit: This has absolutely nothing to do with the re-casting of the TOS characters. The fact that different actors are playing the characters is of no consequence. Even if it were an origin story dealing with the original characters, younger actors would have to have been used. I have no problem with that.

Just for anyone interested, this is a link to a thread I posted on startrekmovie.com back in April of 2009. Clicky

It addresses the "Linear Vs. Dimensional" time travel issue with a theory of my own.

I also want to add that despite the authors "after the movie spin" that this is a paralell universe story, the action and the dialog do not support that theory.

So I do see this movie has taking place in the original Star Trek universe I have grown to love.