Why is First Contact actually so beloved by the fandom?

[Unimatrix Q]

QUOTE="NCC-73515, post: 13805452, member: 77994"]and where did he say that the entire collective was affected? why would he know what's going on in the delta quadrant, for example, after they got separated?[/QUOTE]

Because he was talking about the collective as a whole. And if he or some other Borg assumed that not all of it was dealing with the same issues, wouldn't he have mentioned it and/or wouldn't these Borg either have been deactivated or tried to return to the other Borg in the delta quadrant for the collective to fix them.

I believe Hugh as a part of the collective would know the state of the whole and if they had become separated from the main frame...

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I think First Contact is okay for what it is -- a made-for-television reunion movie with a feature film's budget and production values. A friend, who loves the film, called it "'Best of Both Worlds' with a budget." I think that's damning with faint praise.

Generations was an ambitious failure. First Contact was an adequate success. In comparison to its predecessor, First Contact was always going to look better to fandom than it was. Context matters.

 

[Kor]

FC is full of holes. But as a piece of entertainment, I enjoy it more than Generations.

Kor

 

[Lord Garth]

First Contact is also the Star Trek movie that calls bullshit on the Evolved Humanity idea from TNG. Points for that alone, if nothing else.

While we're at it: Zephram Cochrane makes a great stand-in for Gene Roddenberry. Warts and all.

 

[Phoenix219]

I think First Contact is okay for what it is -- a made-for-television reunion movie with a feature film's budget and production values. A friend, who loves the film, called it "'Best of Both Worlds' with a budget." I think that's damning with faint praise.

Generations was an ambitious failure. First Contact was an adequate success. In comparison to its predecessor, First Contact was always going to look better to fandom than it was. Context matters.

Yup. Its TMP/Khan all over again.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Yup. Its TMP/Khan all over again.

Both movies (and most of Disco as well as STP, so far) are way better than FC imho.

What i really wonder about is why are fans way more forgiving to this movie than to everything the new shows did? Even if the mistakes are kind of the same or smaller than everything First Contact did wrong?

Another example: Why did the new design for the Borg and the alterations to their concept become accepted at this point (at least until the shit finally hit the pan in Voyager), while the redesign for the Klingons and the additions to the lore about them, for example, got a lot of critique by a part of the fanbase?

And why were the plot holes (like how there still is a Borg Collective after "Descent" for example) apparently no big deal, while smaller plot holes in the new shows (that are often explained in later episodes) get so much hate?

Is the reason for the big success of this movie in the fandom, perhaps simply nostalgia?

 

[MacLeod]

For instance Picard appeared to come over a big part of his trauma by the end of "I, Borg" by dealing with Hugh, which brings up the fact that the Borg shouldn't be a collective anymore because of his return to them. Yet there is, without any in-movie explanation.

And there is the issue of Zefram Cochrane being an entirely different character (physical as well as mentally) and that first contact with the Vulcans happened in 2063, while it appeared that the hell hole Earth in 2079 appeared to be in EaF hadn't have contact to any other species at that time.

There are other examples, but these were the ones that are the most blatant imo.

I'm no trauma expert but isn't it reasonable to think that in the case of PTSD which Picard likely suffered from following the events of BOBW that an event could trigger all those memories to come back, for example a person who has been shot might have a negative reaction to say a car backfiring?

Go back to "Q Who" and assimilation didn't appear to be a Borg thing, that was indrocuded in BOBW. Inconsistancies in movies is not uncommon. The question is despite any incosistancies were you entertained? The majority of people would appear to have been.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I'm no trauma expert but isn't it reasonable to think that in the case of PTSD which Picard likely suffered from following the events of BOBW that an event could trigger all those memories to come back, for example a person who has been shot might have a negative reaction to say a car backfiring?

Go back to "Q Who" and assimilation didn't appear to be a Borg thing, that was indrocuded in BOBW. Inconsistancies in movies is not uncommon. The question is despite any incosistancies were you entertained? The majority of people would appear to have been.

Can only speak for myself, your milleage may vary, but i was way better entertained by the TOS movies, Disco, Picard and LD than by this movie (all of the TNG movies to be fair)

To come back to your point about PTSD, the way Picard dealed with it in the new show, when he arrived on the romulan Borg cube, was way more realistic and in line with Picard's character in TNG than his John McClane like behavior in FC. But on the other side, i can see that a realistic depiction of dealing with his trauma would be difficult to portray in a scifi action movie.

 

[UssGlenn]

Both movies (and most of Disco as well as STP, so far) are way better than FC imho.

What i really wonder about is why are fans way more forgiving to this movie than to everything the new shows did? Even if the mistakes are kind of the same or smaller than everything First Contact did wrong?

Another example: Why did the new design for the Borg and the alterations to their concept become accepted at this point (at least until the shit finally hit the pan in Voyager), while the redesign for the Klingons and the additions to the lore about them, for example, got a lot of critique by a part of the fanbase?

And why were the plot holes (like how there still is a Borg Collective after "Descent" for example) apparently no big deal, while smaller plot holes in the new shows (that are often explained in later episodes) get so much hate?

Is the reason for the big success of this movie in the fandom, perhaps simply nostalgia?

I already talked about this. First Contact is an entertaining movie. It is fun to watch. People feel less compulsion to nitpick things they enjoy.

Additionaly First Contact takes place after all the previous Borg episodes so an evolution of the Borg doesn't break continuity because it was established that the Borg evolve and change by adding new cultures and tech to the collective. Most people understand that intuitively and don't need it explained to them.

If the Discovery Kingdoms had been seen only in the 31st century, we would have had much calmer discussions about their design.

 

[MacLeod]

Can only speak for myself, your milleage may vary, but i was way better entertained by the TOS movies, Disco, Picard and LD than by this movie (all of the TNG movies to be fair)

To come back to your point about PTSD, the way Picard dealed with it in the new show, when he arrived on the romulan Borg cube, was way more realistic and in line with Picard's character in TNG than his John McClane like behavior in FC. But on the other side, i can see that a realistic depiction of dealing with his trauma would be difficult to portray in a scifi action movie.

PIC was also set 2399 over 3 decades after BOBW, FC was only a few years after BOBW. Time can allow people come to terms more with events that have happened to them.

I can enjoy certain aspects of a film/TV show whilst not enjoying others, sure I have enjoyed some aspects of DSC and PIC but not all.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Additionaly First Contact takes place after all the previous Borg episodes so an evolution of the Borg doesn't break continuity because it was established that the Borg evolve and change by adding new cultures and tech to the collective. Most people understand that intuitively and don't need it explained to them.

If the Discovery Kingdoms had been seen only in the 31st century, we would have had much calmer discussions about their design.

I kinda doubt that, the critique just would shift to be more about it being unrealistic that a whole species looks completely different after "just approximately 800 years for no good reason" for example.

And although it's not the movies fault, there is also the issue that the Borg were retconned to have always been like that in Voyager and that the Federation always knew about their existence. Both things retroactively diminishing the TNG episodes about them.

 

[NCC-73515]

Another example: Why did the new design for the Borg and the alterations to their concept become accepted at this point (at least until the shit finally hit the pan in Voyager), while the redesign for the Klingons and the additions to the lore about them, for example, got a lot of critique by a part of the fanbase?

The Borg design was only updated with more detail. Their heads weren't elongated, they didn't get additional nostrils, claws, or body-wide wrinkles that they never had before or after.

And why were the plot holes (like how there still is a Borg Collective after "Descent" for example) apparently no big deal, while smaller plot holes in the new shows (that are often explained in later episodes) get so much hate?

See above.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

The Borg design was only updated with more detail. Their heads weren't elongated, they didn't get additional nostrils, claws, or body-wide wrinkles that they never had before or after.

See above.

That's actually similar to the issue that all the Borg in TNG basically were just very humanlike cyborgs that procreated on their own, with biological assimilation being more of an exception than the rule, while since FC there is no Borg species anymore and every drone is a zombiefied member of another race.

That change is at least as big as the redesign of the Klingons imo.

 

[UssGlenn]

Borg in TNG basically were just very humanlike cyborgs that procreated on their own, with biological assimilation being more of an exception than the rule,

Strongly implied but never confirmed, as retcons go biological assimilation was a very smooth one.

 

[Mudd]

Because like TWOK it's a decently made action film with a little humor and not a great deal of pretension to more.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I can't see anything smooth about this retcon. It erased an entire species (the original Borg) and changed almost every detail about them, even their behavior.

 

[Swedish Borg]

It's actually really funny that First Contact always gets mentioned as one of the best star trek movies, considering that Picard acts out of character in it, a lot of continuity issues, the Borg Queen, instant nanoprobe assimilation and that it was ultimately responsible for ruining the Borg.

Not to speak of the fact that it's mainly just a scifi action movie wirh the fate of the Federation at stake. Something that a lot of the same fans criticize Disco and Star Trek Picard for...

Yes, it also started the tendency to responding to crucial questions with nonsense.

Picard: If you were on the borg cube you should be dead.

BQ: You think in such two-dimensional terms (or something like that)

----

"Insurrection"

Picard: how do you do that? (slowdown time or whatever)

Anij: You're asking too many questions.

---

Plus it killed the borg. Which led to Janeway and crew getting assimilated... ON PURPOSE.

Pretty soon being a borg is like taking one of these vacations where you pretend to live in medieval times or whatever.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Picard: Being a Borg was a horrible experience!

Janeway: Don't be such a baby, it was a walk in the park.

 

[Tuskin38]

the Borg in TNG basically were just very humanlike cyborgs that procreated on their own, with biological assimilation being more of an exception than the rule

The Retcon started in TNG, not First Contact. The Borg were all about assimilating life forms starting from Best of Both Worlds. All they talk about is assimilating species and their cultures, not just technology.

PICARD [on viewscreen]: Discussion is irrelevant. There are no terms. You will disarm all your weapons and escort us to Sector zero zero one where we will begin assimilating your culture and technology.
(mute)

RIKER: We would like time to prepare our people for assimilation.
PICARD [on viewscreen]: Preparation is irrelevant. Your people will be assimilated as easily as Picard has been. Your attempt at a delay will not be successful, Number One. We will proceed to Earth, and if you attempt to intervene, we will destroy you.

PICARD: Worf. Klingon species. A warrior race. You too will be assimilated.
WORF: The Klingon Empire will never yield.
PICARD: Why do you resist? We only wish to raise quality of life for all species.

'I, Borg' continues with this notion

CRUSHER: There's been no formal declaration of war.
TROI: Not from us, but certainly from them. They've attacked us in every encounter.
PICARD: They've declared war on our way of life. We are to be assimilated.

LAFORGE: We're trying to learn more about you.
BORG: Why?
LAFORGE: Because you're different than we are. Part of what we do is to learn more about other species.
BORG: We assimilate species. Then we know everything about them.
LAFORGE: Yeah. I know.

BORG: When you are assimilated, you will have a similar device.
CRUSHER: Hugh, do you understand we don't want to be assimilated?
BORG: Why do you resist us?

GUINAN: Aren't you going to tell me you have to assimilate me?
BORG: You wish to be assimilated?
GUINAN: No, but that's what you things do, isn't it?
(a nod)
GUINAN: Resistance is futile.
BORG: Resistance is futile.
GUINAN: It isn't. My people resisted when the Borg came to assimilate us. Some of us survived.
BORG: Resistance is not futile?

PICARD: This culture will be assimilated.
BORG: They do not wish it.
PICARD: Irrelevant.
BORG: They will resist us.
PICARD: Resistance is futile.
BORG: Resistance is not futile. Some have escaped.
PICARD: They will be found. It is inevitable. All will be assimilated.
BORG: Must Geordi be assimilated?
PICARD: Yes.
BORG: He does not wish it. He would rather die than be assimilated.
PICARD: Then he will die.
BORG: No. Geordi must not die. Geordi is a friend.
PICARD: You will assist us to assimilate this vessel. You are Borg. You will assist us.
BORG: I will not.
PICARD: What did you say?
BORG: I will not assist you.
PICARD: I?
BORG: Geordi must not be assimilated.

Decent Part 1

PICARD: Did they show any interest in assimilating you or your technology?
RIKER: They seemed more concerned with the death of their colleague and with destroying us. I didn't see anything that suggested they wanted to assimilate anybody.

CROSIS: The One who will destroy you.
PICARD: But you are Borg. Your goal is not to destroy but to assimilate us into the collective.

The only post-TNG Retcon I can think of is not assimilating individuals. This exchanged in 'I, Borg' makes it sound like the Borg only try to assimilate all at once. Making Picard a liaison was an exception.

BORG: The Borg assimilate civilisations, not individuals.
CRUSHER: But, Captain, they kidnapped you.
PICARD: Because they needed a liaison to communicate with humans. They ignored every away team we sent to their ship, including yours, Doctor. You may accompany him. Goodbye.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

'Best of Both Worlds Part 2' would disagree with this assessment. The Retcon started in TNG, not First Contact. The Borg were all about assimilating life forms starting from that episode.

Locutus/The Borg talk about assimilating both humanity and the Klingon empire.






Assimilating the entire species doesn't seem like an 'exception'.

'I, Borg' continues this



So no, it isn't First Contact's fault. They expanded on what started in TNG.

Yeah, assimilation became a thing for the Borg in BOBW. But the difference as i interpreted it, is that the Borg didn't try to assimilate every advanced species in their way and were more after the technology and a possibly smaller amount of people at this time.

There would have been at least a few different species among the Borg if the Borg were mass assimilating like it is the case since FC. (Something that would be possible to show even with the budget for an average TNG episode.)

And why bothering with the surgery for Picard if simply injecting some nano probes would seal the deal. The nano probes also took away a lot of the horror of the assimilation.

Way scarier to be consciously cut up by a mercyless, cold and unstoppable foe than getting an injection.