Why is DS9 so disliked....

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Well, it's not my place to comment on what goes on in the VOY forum.

But once again, DS9 fans are not the only people around here at fault - they are not the only people around here who have 'subjected' others to FAN-related (as opposed to SHOW-related) commentary. Plenty of VOY fans have done the same thing over the years...as have fans of ALL of the Trek shows.

I do not think it is particularly constructive to post some of the comments made in that thread, but that is not my forum and I do not presume to know much about the current atmosphere in there...so I feel it best to reserve any sort of judgment. I myself have allowed many threads in here over the years which bashed DS9 - and like Akiraprise, I felt it was important to TRY and keep them open - chiefly so as to give people a say and not stifle true discussion or disagreement. This IS a discussion board, after all...and if I closed threads...well....like *this* one, simply because it is not all warm-and-glowy about DS9, then this board would become pretty dull.

However, even your comment that you have been 'subjected to years of DS9 fans' doing XYZ is NOT constructive, Malcom. I mean, how is your comment above any different than what OldManDax said? Both are generalizations about whole groups of posters - don't you see that?

And further, DS9 fans have been 'subjected' to years of VOY fans doing the same sort of thing in here! But the thing is, pissing each other off is NOT the way to handle it.

We need to ALL simply knock it off. Knock off the behavior. But just as importantly, knock off the finger-pointing and grudge-carrying.

Now, I have no control over what goes on in the VOY forum. You will have to take that up with the mods in there.

However, I am quite sure of how I want to handle stuff in here. And that is this: I will NOT allow DS9 fans to bash non-DS9 fans. NOR will I allow non-DS9 fans to make sweeping generalizations about DS9 fans, 'rabid' or otherwise, 'subjecting' their fan group to this or that sort of behavior.

There is a reason this bitterness has gone on for so long, Malcom - and is is because VOY fans were just as guilty as DS9 fans during that 'war' years ago. BOTH sides had 'obnoxious' posters, Malcolm - I was here and posted in both forums regularly, so I know. For every Sokar, there WAS a Nebula1, Malcom. And you can make BOOK on that.

VOY fans were injured - I agree on that. I saw it myself and do not deny it. But some VOY fans DO give the impression that they believe that they were the ONLY ones injured (or, at least they are the posters who seem to always bring it up over and over all these years later - at least in the DS9 forum.). But trust me, VOY fans were NOT the only ones injured, Malcom. And frankly, there are more than a few DS9 fans who have become tired of being dumped on for everything bad that ever happened in the VOY forum.

I mean, none of those people are even HERE, anymore, Malcom. To my recollection, there were four people who caused most of the trouble back then - two Niners and two VOY fans. The two Niners trolled the VOY forum, and the two VOY fans trolled the DS9 forum.

Then, in round two, we had a couple of DS9 fans taking shots in the VOY forum....and conversely, you had your gang-o-girls (and you know who they were) who did the SAME in here. They were treated like heroes in the VOY forum, Malcom (and yes - I DID read the VOY forum back then, so I know) - but let me tell you something: BOD and her gang were just as guilty as 8-4-7-2. JUST as guilty, just as hurtful, just as mean-spirited, and just as annoying. In fact, those girls are the primarly reason why I stopped posting in the VOY forum!

They were NOT heroes - nor was 8-4-7-2 a hero (the one difference being that I did not ALLOW him to be treated like a hero in here, which was NOT the case with BOD in the VOY forum, by the way). These people caused NO END of troubles. And to blame only one side is GROSSLY unfair.

The sooner everyone accepts the REALITY of what the situation has really BEEN over the years, rather than continuing to dwell on how THEY, and they ALONE, were 'wronged', the sooner we can all move on.

I mean, how long are we gonna carry this torch? It's been SIX YEARS, 'fer cryin' out loud.

I realize I might be going all da Woim, here...but I am really, really tired of this petty infighting. And before I DIE, I would LOVE to see everyone stop pointing fingers and start building bridges.

 

[Malcom]

Again, I generally agree with everything you've said. The folks you mentioned - and some others - should have been treated far more harshly than they were. So often, the system seems to have protected those who abuse the good nature of the board's rules and the people that enforced it.

I wish that the Voyager forum had had a moderator such as you.

Keep up the Good Fight!

 

[OldManDax]

Malcom said:

PKTrekGirl said:
You want to discuss the *show*, that's cool. But I don't wanna see any more comments about people who don't like DS9 perhaps being less sophisticated...or people who don't like DS9 not being hard core enough fans.

Also, I do NOT want to see any more posts implying that 'rabid' DS9 fans (like that is the only series who has them ) are 'obnoxious'.

Great post, that should be posted in all fora. The folks in the Voyager forum have been subjected to years of DS9 fans starting threads like this:

Thread trashing Voyager in Voyager forum

o.K., now you are using my name and my thread as a way to illustrate a larger point - and imo, you are using quite incorrectly, and, in line, with a lot of the criticism, in a very lopsided fashion, IMO.

Ya know, I've pretty much kept my mouth shut since that incident around here. I sent OdoItal a PM explaining my actions, and how I most certainly meant no malice, or disrespect to VOY fans. I was even planning to offer a mea culpa to the fans for what were perhaps some clumsily chosen words and expressions in that post.

But I'm NOT going to apologize for having some strong opinions about the nature of the board itself.

Moreover, as I took great pains to explain, there were many things I liked about the show itself, that I found compelling, and worthwhile, and was troubled by the undermining of those strengths by what I felt was writer laziness and sleight-of-hand. Heck, I even consider B'elanna Torres and The Doctor two of my favorite Trek characters, ever. And i've said before that I consider Tim Russ, Jeri Ryan and Kate Mulgrew to be among the best actors in Trek.

So, question: how would I know all of this, and have all these observations, if I were merely a Voyager hater and/or someone who wanted to look down on/condescend to the show's fans.

Answer: I at one point, was something of a fan. Or at least someone who enjoyed a great deal of the show, especially in the early seasons (which again, I took great pains to explain). But since I didn't come in the forum waving the banner of "good-natured fan" and dared to comment on what I felt was the overall tone of the forum, complete with endless smilies, "s and "IMO", I get grouped into the a very nebulous catch-all: "rabid DS9 fann who thinks everyone else is too dumb to know good Trek".

I bear no malice towards anyone for this. But I must say it pretty much proves my points.

And I used to post regularly in the VOY forum, as DaSisko. Check it out for yourself.

 

[Orac Zen]

*** applauds PKTG ***

Things sucked a few years ago. All of us who were here back then know that. It was incredibly ugly. I vividly recall some of the absolutely disgusting threads started in the Voy forum, and I'm very thankful the people who started those threads (many of whom claimed to be DS9 fans, although who really knows with such people) are gone. All of us who were there know that each "side" gave as good as it got. I didn't read the DS9 forum back then, but if PKTG says similar crap was perpetrated in here by people claiming to be Voy fans then I believe her. It all led to a great deal of bad blood and to fan groups being very defensive and combative. Little discussion, lots of bashing.

Times have changed. Most of the regulars in this forum know I'm not a fan of DS9, but I can post in here without a qualm, knowing that the vast - vast - majority of people in here are perfectly sane, normal fans who aren't going to crap on someone because they're not a fan. Lots of people - PKTG among them - worked damned hard to make that happen and I, for one, don't want to see that undone. When all's said and done, they're TV SHOWS. They are NOT the meaning of life. And if we're getting so worked up about them that we're harassing each other, we need to step back and see that there are far more important things in life than whether or not someone likes a TV show.

The past was highly unpleasant...but it is the past. Let's move on.

[/soapbox]

 

[CaptainHawk1]

PKTrekGirl said:
Okay guys.

I want NO more posts in this thread that discuss attributes or suspected attributes of DS9 FANS/NON-FANS. You want to discuss the *show*, that's cool. But I don't wanna see any more comments about people who don't like DS9 perhaps being less sophisticated...or people who don't like DS9 not being hard core enough fans.

Here we go again.

Hold on here. The whole point of this thread was to express opinions on why fans may not like the show. How is it humanly possible to discuss that without discussing the attributes of THE FANS.

Now I personally was being very careful with my wording as to explain my experiences with certain fans who do not like or understand the appeal of the show which is certainly appropriate for the topic of discussion. I certainly can't comment on why I don't like it because it's my favorite series so I have to refer to the fans who don't like it and the impressions they have given me. This thread isn't a discussion about the show, it's a discussion about the fans.

You come in to these threads and you swing this big stick of being a moderator around making all these demands with no rationale.

If you think the topic of the thread is inappropriate and you think it incites flaming/trolling, then shut it down. But I want to know why you think it's ok to leave it open and then tell others what opinions they can and can not post when they are not examples of flaming and are only their opinions based upon the subject of the thread.

Most of the posters here did not get into a pissing match or start slamming other fans or posters. To paint everyone with that brush is disengenuos at best.

Controlling flaming/trolling is one thing, suppressing freedom of speech is another.

-Shawn

 

[PKTrekGirl]

OldManDax said:

Malcom said:

PKTrekGirl said:
You want to discuss the *show*, that's cool. But I don't wanna see any more comments about people who don't like DS9 perhaps being less sophisticated...or people who don't like DS9 not being hard core enough fans.

Also, I do NOT want to see any more posts implying that 'rabid' DS9 fans (like that is the only series who has them ) are 'obnoxious'.

Great post, that should be posted in all fora. The folks in the Voyager forum have been subjected to years of DS9 fans starting threads like this:

Thread trashing Voyager in Voyager forum

o.K., now you are using my name and my thread as a way to illustrate a larger point - and imo, you are using quite incorrectly, and, in line, with a lot of the criticism, in a very lopsided fashion, IMO.

Ya know, I've pretty much kept my mouth shut since that incident around here. I sent OdoItal a PM explaining my actions, and how I most certainly meant no malice, or disrespect to VOY fans. I was even planning to offer a mea culpa to the fans for what were perhaps some clumsily chosen words and expressions in that post.

But I'm NOT going to apologize for having some strong opinions about the nature of the board itself.

Moreover, as I took great pains to explain, there were many things I liked about the show itself, that I found compelling, and worthwhile, and was troubled by the undermining of those strengths by what I felt was writer laziness and sleight-of-hand. Heck, I even consider B'elanna Torres and The Doctor two of my favorite Trek characters, ever. And i've said before that I consider Tim Russ, Jeri Ryan and Kate Mulgrew to be among the best actors in Trek.

So, question: how would I know all of this, and have all these observations, if I were merely a Voyager hater and/or someone who wanted to look down on/condescend to the show's fans.

Answer: I at one point, was something of a fan. Or at least someone who enjoyed a great deal of the show, especially in the early seasons (which again, I took great pains to explain). But since I didn't come in the forum waving the banner of "good-natured fan" and dared to comment on what I felt was the overall tone of the forum, complete with endless smilies, "s and "IMO", I get grouped into the a very nebulous catch-all: "rabid DS9 fann who thinks everyone else is too dumb to know good Trek".

I bear no malice towards anyone for this. But I must say it pretty much proves my points.

And I used to post regularly in the VOY forum, as DaSisko. Check it out for yourself.

OldManDax, I realize you are trying to explain yourself...but this is an issue you guys need to take up with the mods in the VOY forum.

The thread in question did not occur in here, and I don't feel comfortable moderating an argument about it. That's what the VOY mods get paid for. Erm...or not.

Thanks.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

CaptainHawk1 said:

PKTrekGirl said:
Okay guys.

I want NO more posts in this thread that discuss attributes or suspected attributes of DS9 FANS/NON-FANS. You want to discuss the *show*, that's cool. But I don't wanna see any more comments about people who don't like DS9 perhaps being less sophisticated...or people who don't like DS9 not being hard core enough fans.

Here we go again.

Hold on here. The whole point of this thread was to express opinions on why fans may not like the show. How is it humanly possible to discuss that without discussing the attributes of THE FANS.

Now I personally was being very careful with my wording as to explain my experiences with certain fans who do not like or understand the appeal of the show which is certainly appropriate for the topic of discussion. I certainly can't comment on why I don't like it because it's my favorite series so I have to refer to the fans who don't like it and the impressions they have given me. This thread isn't a discussion about the show, it's a discussion about the fans.

You come in to these threads and you swing this big stick of being a moderator around making all these demands with no rationale.

If you think the topic of the thread is inappropriate and you think it incites flaming/trolling, then shut it down. But I want to know why you think it's ok to leave it open and then tell others what opinions they can and can not post when they are not examples of flaming and are only their opinions based upon the subject of the thread.

Most of the posters here did not get into a pissing match or start slamming other fans or posters. To paint everyone with that brush is disengenuos at best.

Controlling flaming/trolling is one thing, suppressing freedom of speech is another.

-Shawn

Okay.

Fact 1 - there is no 'freedom of speech' on this board. This is a privately owned message board. And the owners make the rules. In actual fact, there is no longer any freedom of speech in the U.S. either...but that is for another forum. So forget about 'freedom of speech'. That dog don't hunt.

Fact 2 - one of said owner-made rules reads thusly:

Flaming - Obviously, you cannot insult other people, whether it be a mild flame (as in "idiot" or "moron") or a more severe one. You may disagree with someone's opinion, but you may not attack the person themselves for posting that opinion.

Another of said rules reads thusly:

Trolling - Trolling is an internet term that means you're not posting to actually start or participate in a good discussion, but simply to anger another member or group of members. Posting in order to bait other users, moderators or administrators will not be tolerated.

In yet another part of the rules it says the following:

It's fine to say a certain aspect of Star Trek is bad, as long as you don't insult the people who think otherwise, and as long as you actually back up what you say.

(emphasis mine)

Now...I don't know about you...but to me that says that it is NOT cool to make sweeping negative generalizations about ANY fan group.

Therefore, the individual who claims that anyone who dislikes DS9 is 'unsophisticated' 'immature' or whatever, is not obeying the rules. Nor is the guy who comes in there and talks about 'rabid' (an intentionally inflammatory word choice - no, I'm NOT as dumb as I look ) DS9 fans 'subjecting' them to XYZ behavior.

You are welcome to criticize the SHOWS. You can say what you like about DS9 or about VOY...and long as you BACK UP YOUR REMARKS per the rules enumerated above.

However, slams against any group of fans - implying they are defective, less intelligent, immature, or 'rabid' will simply not be tolerated.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Orac Zen said:

The past was highly unpleasant...but it is the past. Let's move on.

Girlfriend, you can stay on that soapbox for as long as you like. I've set up my soapbox right beside ya.

 

[Orac Zen]

So long as my sopabox is taller, I'm cool with that.

 

[JM1776]

Seems to me I struck a little too close to home, considering the belated hue and cry.

I'm the one who employed the adjective "rabid" ... and can't comprehend how something may be taken so wildly out of context when my statement is in black and white above.

I did not call all or even most DS9 fans "rabid" and/or "obnoxious." Instead, I said this [italics added in the following quote for emphasis]: "I've always found the most rabid DS9 fans more than a bit obnoxious; they have an ingrained belief in the superior maturity of their tastes—which is, frankly, laughable."

Now if you're not "one of the most rabid DS9 fans," that ain't directed at you, now is it? Can't make it any clearer than that. I didn't come in here making sweeping generalizations ... but I stand firmly by what I said, in reference to certain individuals that frequent this forum.

By no means was it some sort of universal condemnation, or even one that should annoy a person who understands that others' opinions are to be respected, rather than dismissed as ... hmm ... let's see ... [all quoted from various posters above, before I responded unkindly]:

• Temis the Vorta referred to "misguided souls" who might not like DS9 ... which is relatively innocuous unless considered as the tip of an iceberg ... or the first flake of an avalanche.
  
• Ripley opined that DS9 is so good "that no other Trek can be compared to it." While entitled to his/her perspective, it's not exactly conducive to amity and an agree-to-disagree spirit.
  
• Navaros gave us this insight: "DS9 is too sophisticated for average joe viewer." Anyone noting the slippery slope of disdain here?
  
• Photon fired an eponymous spread with, "DS9 tends to be liked by more mature viewers." Kinda speaks for itself, doesn't it?
  
• indranee mentioned "short attention spans," and a few other points that may be both valid and provocative.
  
• Orac Zen noted, "I'm sure none of you are actually saying that people who don't care for DS9 aren't as smart or sophisticated or mature as people who do, because that would be absurd." At last, a voice of reason.

I unfortunately made the mistake of responding to what was actually written, instead of generously giving those people a pass, as OZ did. Frankly, hers was the more prudent course. Silly me, thinking that I could respond without triggering a series of inappropriate "thou shalt nots" and "attagirls."

Instead of noting the meat of my post, which read "The crux of it is this: That which makes the series particularly enjoyable for some—its darker tone, perceived grittiness and realism—is precisely what other, equally intelligent and perceptive viewers find distasteful ... and in some cases, abhorrent," I've had "rabid" and "obnoxious" quoted at least thrice ... and this by the moderator herself, who maintained her distance and impartiality by employing the never-provocative "eyeroll" in reference to what I'd said, at least twice. Way to go for that even-handedness, there, PKTrekGirl.

We've established that evidently infighting is not acceptable, but pontificating and piling on after the point has long been made is. You went after me not once (which would have at least been from your perspective punishment fitting the nonexistent crime), but three times ... and now will receive what you deserve in turn.

I note with interest that the moderator's intervention occurs not in response to at least three or four posts consisting of a variant on "well, we're just more discerning in our tastes," but instead after the pseudo-cognoscenti are told in no uncertain terms that their take is idiotic. Perhaps a more timely smackdown---like when the rabid (there's that especially relevant word again) Niners start their blathering in the first place---might serve to create both amity and equity around here. It's tiresome to see an "everybody stop it" post, when what we should have gotten was a "get over yourselves" post days before that.

If you'd done your job in a timely, impartial and proper fashion, your little ex cathedra pronouncement would never have been necessary. Don't single me out with your bratty little eye-rollies and then delude yourself into thinking I won't respond simply because you're a moderator.

I believe it was you who once asked why I no longer frequent these fora very much.

As Steve Martin would say, "Gee, I ... I wonder why?"

[Edited to remove a single inappropriate comment, add the final two sentences, and note that Orac Zen is evidently a female. My apologies.]

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Malcom said:
Again, I generally agree with everything you've said. The folks you mentioned - and some others - should have been treated far more harshly than they were. So often, the system seems to have protected those who abuse the good nature of the board's rules and the people that enforced it.

I would agree with that. Sadly, there are always gonna be those that will try and walk as close to the line as possible...dipping their toes over occasionally when they think no one is looking...or no one looking is smart enough to figure out what they are doing.

I have no doubt whatever that there have been some DS9 fans over the years who have done this. But there are also some VOY fans, some TNG fans, some TOS fans, and some ENT fans who have done the same.

Some people get their thrills not from enjoyable discussion and debate...but from pissing people off and acting all innocent and shocked when they get called on it. It has been a continuing problem on this board - not just in the Trek forums but in all the different variations of TNZ we have had, as well as in forums like Battlestar Galactica.

Unfortunately, I cannot change that. Nor can the dozens of DS9 fans on this board who have no beef whatever with VOY or it's fans.

But thankfully, the truly terrible days of the past are over....and I think it would be just swell if we could all just put this issue to bed and start looking at disruptive posters of ANY variety as simply that: disruptive posters. NOT "Disruptive DS9 fans". NOT "Disruptive VOY fans"...but simply "Disruptive individuals"...who are acting INDIVIDUALLY...and not at all necessarily with the approval of their rest of their favorite fan group.

I wish that the Voyager forum had had a moderator such as you.

Well, I do my best. Lord knows as a mod of this forum for the past (almost) 5 years, I've made some mistakes. But I also like to think that I've been involved in this situation long enough to appreciate that both groups have been right...and both have been wrong. And both, for their own good, need to find a way of getting past the damage that FOUR people inflicted on us *ALL*, 6 years ago.

I mean, if we keep going round and round about this, the Sokars and Nebula1s of the world will have won! Those guys were like cyber-terrorists. And if we continue to let them effect us and our relationships, all these years later, then THEY have won - the trolls have won! And worse yet, in absentia! Because they all have been gone for YEARS.

Now personally, I don't WANT Sokar or Nebula1 to win.

What about you?

Keep up the Good Fight!

Oh...I'm still paddlin! No worries there.

 

[Orac Zen]

One minor clarification:

JM1776 said:
Frankly, his was the more prudent course.

JM, I know it's been a long time since we've crossed paths and I have a different username now, but I was a woman when I was known as SB and I still am one.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

JM1776 said:
Seems to me I struck a little too close to home, considering the belated hue and cry.

I'm the one who employed the adjective "rabid" ... and can't comprehend how something may be taken so wildly out of context when my statement is in black and white above.

I did not call all or even most DS9 fans "rabid" and/or "obnoxious." Instead, I said this [italics added in the following quote for emphasis]: "I've always found the most rabid DS9 fans more than a bit obnoxious; they have an ingrained belief in the superior maturity of their tastes—which is, frankly, laughable."

Now if you're not "one of the most rabid DS9 fans," that ain't directed at you, now is it? Can't make it any clearer than that. I didn't come in here making sweeping generalizations ... but I stand firmly by what I said, in reference to certain individuals that frequent this forum.

By no means was it some sort of universal condemnation, or even one that should annoy a person who understands that others' opinions are to be respected, rather than dismissed as ... hmm ... let's see ... [all quoted from various posters above, before I responded unkindly]:

• Temis the Vorta referred to "misguided souls" who might not like DS9 ... which is relatively innocuous unless considered as the tip of an iceberg ... or the first flake of an avalanche.
  
• Ripley opined that DS9 is so good "that no other Trek can be compared to it." While entitled to his/her perspective, it's not exactly conducive to amity and an agree-to-disagree spirit.
  
• Navaros gave us this insight: "DS9 is too sophisticated for average joe viewer." Anyone noting the slippery slope of disdain here?
  
• Photon fired an eponymous spread with, "DS9 tends to be liked by more mature viewers." Kinda speaks for itself, doesn't it?
  
• indranee mentioned "short attention spans," and a few other points that may be both valid and provocative.
  
• Orac Zen noted, "I'm sure none of you are actually saying that people who don't care for DS9 aren't as smart or sophisticated or mature as people who do, because that would be absurd." At last, a voice of reason.

I unfortunately made the mistake of responding to what was actually written, instead of generously giving those people a pass, as OZ did. Frankly, hers was the more prudent course. Silly me, thinking that I could respond without triggering a series of inappropriate "thou shalt nots" and "attagirls."

Instead of noting the meat of my post, which read "The crux of it is this: That which makes the series particularly enjoyable for some—its darker tone, perceived grittiness and realism—is precisely what other, equally intelligent and perceptive viewers find distasteful ... and in some cases, abhorrent," I've had "rabid" and "obnoxious" quoted at least thrice ... and this by the moderator herself, who maintained her distance and impartiality by employing the never-provocative "eyeroll" in reference to what I'd said, at least twice. Way to go for that even-handedness, there, PKTrekGirl.

We've established that evidently infighting is not acceptable, but pontificating and piling on after the point has long been made is. You went after me not once (which would have at least been from your perspective punishment fitting the nonexistent crime), but three times ... and now will receive what you deserve in turn.

I note with interest that the moderator's intervention occurs not in response to at least three or four posts consisting of a variant on "well, we're just more discerning in our tastes," but instead after the pseudo-cognoscenti are told in no uncertain terms that their take is idiotic. Perhaps a more timely smackdown---like when the rabid (there's that especially relevant word again) Niners start their blathering in the first place---might serve to create both amity and equity around here. It's tiresome to see an "everybody stop it" post, when what we should have gotten was a "get over yourselves" post days before that.

If you'd done your job in a timely, impartial and proper fashion, your little ex cathedra pronouncement would never have been necessary. Don't single me out with your bratty little eye-rollies and then delude yourself into thinking I won't respond simply because you're a moderator.

I believe it was you who once asked why I no longer frequent these fora very much.

As Steve Martin would say, "Gee, I ... I wonder why?"

[Edited to remove a single inappropriate comment, add the final two sentences, and note that Orac Zen is evidently a female. My apologies.]

Okay. I will now address the issue of these posters who you have termed 'rabid'.

1. Temis the Vorta. Okay. I know you have been here a long time. Long enough to know that Temis never says ANYTHING in seriousness. She goes all over this board, in *every* forum, *every* day, making snarky remarks...but they are all in jest. And everyone on this board knows they are in jest, whether she is talking about DS9 (which she likes), Babylon 5 (which she doesn't like), or Heros (which she likes). She has a snarky remark for quite literally *every* occasion...but I have to say that you might be the first person I am aware of who actually takes her seriously. Shoot - she makes snarky remarks about DS9! Most of us either laugh...or roll our eyes and think to ourself "Well...that's Temis!" And we move on.

You may be aware of the fact that Orac Zen constantly rides me because of my interest in Orlando (the exceedinly HOT) Bloom...making similar kinds of remarks. But not for a moment do I consider it trolling me. She is KIDDING. And everyone reading it knows she is kidding me. Read TECHNICALLY...I guess some of the remarks could be considered trolling. But never ONCE has it ever occurred to me that she was trolling. She's just messing with me - not out of any sort of guile...but out of a sense of playing around.

THAT is what Temis does pretty much 24/7/365, in almost every post she makes - not only in the DS9 forum, but EVERYWHERE, in every topic, from DS9 to Lost to Misc.

2. Ripley. I'm not sure why you think her comment that 'there is no other Trek like DS9' is inaccurate. Because IMO, that is actually a true comment. It is the only Trek that involves long, complex arcs and TONS of recurring characters. It is difficult to keep up with unless you watch it in order and don't skip much. This is not her opinion - this is pretty much fact. And I DO think that some people who claim to not like DS9 have never really given it a chance - they have watched an episode here, an episode there...not in order, not understanding the context of the story in the slightest...and then have claimed to not like it, based on 5 or 6 completely random episodes from all over the place.

Over the years in this forum we have uncovered several posters who claimed to dislike DS9...but then when more closely questioned admitted that they had seen only a few randomly spaced episodes. Well, DS9 cannot be watched like that. And in that regard, it IS unique.

3. Navaros. I have already stated that remarks implying that non-DS9 fans were 'unsophisticated' where not particularly cool.

4. Photon. See comment for Navaros, but instead of 'unsophisticated', replace it with 'immature'. I have already addressed that.

5. Indranee. I did not address this one directly. But it falls under the same umbrella as the previous two.

Now, you apparently think I should have intervened earlier. Maybe so. But do I need to go over all of the comments that NON-DS9 fans made? It wasn't like these comments were confined to DS9 fans, you know. You made a few yourself, in fact.

And I let ALL of them go - not just theirs, but yours too, until this thread got too argumentative. Then I stepped in.

Once again, the DS9 forum has never been moderated like the ENT forum. I am not Big Brother, and I have no interest in warning people for every little slight or technicality. My philosophy is to just let people go on...perhaps making the occasional borderline comment here or there....but ALWAYS allowing the other side equal latitude. If things get too testy, I step in and come down on BOTH SIDES EQUALLY (rarely giving out ANY warnings, by the way, to either side). But most times, they do NOT get too testy.

However, when they DO get testy, I step in, and I try very hard to be fair to both sides, pointing out where BOTH sides might have gone wrong, or where they might improve their communication skills in order to avoid future misunderstandings.

Now...if you think I have malevolent intentions, that is your right. But what I am TRYING to do here is to run this forum reasonably, without being too much of a hardass.

I have seen the joy TOTALLY sucked out of forums by overmoderation and obsession with every single NUANCE of the rules...but that is not the way I operate. I do not want to spend my life in MA, arguing about bullshit technicalities. This forum has *always* been a more relaxed place...and I have rarely had charges of favoritism leveled at me for coming down on one side while not coming down on the other. I make a POINT, in fact, of trying to see things from both sides when/if I 'put on the mod hat' and make a post as mod. You are the first person in quite some time, in fact, to claim I was partial to the Niners. But frankly, given the evidence in this thread, which illustrates clearly that I came down equally on BOTH sides....I find that position untenable.

Now...we can carry this on and on. And if you want to go after me for being such a terrible moderator, you are perfectly within your rights to do so.

But before you continue lobing charges of impartiality around, I think you really ought to examine the facts.

Do you know who most most-warned poster is in this forum over the past 5 years I have spent as mod in here?

I'll tell you the answer: 8-4-7-2. NOT a Voyager fan...not a DS9 basher. But a hard-core Niner. And the offenses that I most warned him for were trolling and flaming.

My second-most warned poster? Jayson. Another Niner (although his warnings were mainly for spamming, not for trolling or flaming).

I give out less than 10 warnings a YEAR these days...so really, I don't see how my so-called lack of partiality (in your opinion) is effecting ANYONE, to be honest. Shoot...a couple of years ago, Jammer gave out a FRIENDLY when a DS9 basher came in here and called the entire FORUM 'a bunch of arrogant pricks'.

That might have been more than a bit lax for my taste...but what I'm trying to say is that this forum has NEVER been run like the Marine Corps. We just try to keep it relaxed and for the most part friendly. And try very hard not to suck every molecule of fun out of posting at TrekBBS by riding everyone's ass 24/7/365.

I'm sorry if that moderating style does not meet with your approval. But it's been that way from Day One (literally - since Jammer and I are the only mods this forum has ever had). And most posters in here seem to LIKE it that way.

 

[JM1776]

Frankly, after reading your reply, I despair of us finding common ground on which to compromise.

I note that you substantively refuted none of the points concerning your attitude towards my original post.

For the record, however, I did not call either Temis the Vorta or Ripley "rabid," as is obvious from the context of my quotes. Here's an idea: Try responding to what I write, and not what you think I might mean, worst-case scenario. As a matter of fact, if you read carefully, I specifically condemned as "rabid" precisely none of the individuals I mentioned.

Your need to categorize my entirely legitimate gripe with your moderating style (applying to this issue, that is) as calling you "malevolent" speaks more to your paranoia than it does my purported meanness. If I thought you were evil, I'd tell you in no uncertain terms.

I have to say that I've already had more than enough of this forum to last me another six months.

 

[Orac Zen]

PKTG knows me well enough to know that (her bizarre ideas of which men are and are not hot aside ) I respect her a great deal. So I know she won't take issue with me when I say that I'm quite certain the use of the word "rabid" in this remark

JM1776 said:
I've always found the most rabid DS9 fans more than a bit obnoxious

was not in any way, shape or form intended to state or imply that all DS9 fans are overzealous - "rabid", if you will - in their defence of the show. It refers to that small subset that every show seems to attract and who feel the need to make themselves heard on internet message boards. I'm sure JM pulled those quotes not to call those posters "rabid" but to state - as I did - that such remarks read more like judgements than any sort of constructive commentary toward the point of this thread.

Similarly, JM, PKTG has made it quite clear that the sorts of remarks you and I quoted are not gonna fly in this forum. She doesn't sweat every last detail in here because she doesn't have to. The "bad old days" are gone; the vast majority of posters in this forum are perfectly reasonable people who don't need to be closely monitored. She's stepped in now, we all know where we stand, and we can move on from there.

Just another two cents worth from someone who knows both of you well enough to know what each of you is actually saying here.

 

[JM1776]

Works for me. :thumbsup:

 

[PKTrekGirl]

JM and OZ...

Well, here are my thoughts on the use of the word 'rabid' (and similar terms with a negative connotation).

First, I realize that you were not referring to ALL DS9 fans, JM. I know you said 'some'.

However, in my view, the word 'rapid' is a word that people use when they are intending to piss others off. I know that you weren't referring to all DS9 fans as 'rabid'...but even if you are referring to some of them, I think it is unnecessary. I think the term *itself* is inflammatory, regardless of who or how many you are referring to. That is why I don't like it.

The other thing is that I am really trying to get past this whole idea of lumping everyone into groups. Everyone on this board is an individual...and should be judged as an individual. But if we keep talking about 'rabid DS9 fans', or 'oversensitive and touchy VOY fans'...we are *never* gonna get past this mentality of dumping everyone who likes a particular show into the same pot.

I'll use another example. Just to illustrate what I'm trying to get across here:

Over the years I have been here, there have been some major assholes who have posted in TNZ. But if you notice, they were not called 'rabid TNZ posters' by anyone. And why is that? My guess - because it's so vague that it can't piss anyone off - it's too large of a group! Instead, many posters in there have been/are referred to - chiefly *by each other* - as 'rabid liberals' or 'rabid conservatives'. 'Rabid Republicans' and 'rabid Democrats'. Once again, the goal being to piss each other off. And the goal is clearly not just to piss off the one person Joe Poster is arguing with at the moment. No - it's EVERYONE who calls themselves a liberal...or EVERYONE who calls themselves a conservative. The poster who uses that term "some rabid XYZ group members" wants EVERYONE in that group to get their panties in a bunch. Because quite intentionally, no one ever says who this 'some' is!

The agenda with the use of that word - especially when used with some sort of vaguely defined group, is to lump people together and judge everyone for the actions of a few. And that is what I'm trying to get past.

Sokar was an individual. As a DS9 fan, I was given no vote in what he posted in the VOY forum. He didn't care what I thought, and he didn't ask my opinion. Nebula1 was an individual, and I doubt she consulted anyone in the VOY forum before she willfully and intentionally disrupted the DS9 forum on a regular basis.

Same with 8-4-7-2 and BOD - two posters who NO ONE was able to keep in line, as it relates to being kind and considerate of those who disagreed with them. I spent HOURS on ICQ and writing PMs to 8-4-7-2, but he didn't care WHAT I thought. And as best I can determine, BOD gloried in her snarkiness and loved every minute of it, regardless of what she did to the reputation of the VOY forum.

That is where I'm going with all of this. I am tired of hearing about these (most of the time) unnamed "rabid" DS9 fans. Because from where I sit, there just haven't been that many of them, and all that there were are long gone.

No doubt you are equally tired of hearing about all of these 'touchy and oversensitive' VOY fans. Who are they? Do we really want to name them? And if we don't, is it really right to continue using the term, every time someone wants to slam VOY fans?: "Well, yeah....some of those VOY fans are just WAY too overly sensitive and touchy. I mean, jeez - they need to lighten the hell UP!!". 'Some'? 'They'? Tell me: Who, specifically?

No one ever says.

Instead, they throw the term out there as a general and intentionally vague slam at VOY fans in general. And slap 'some' on the front end to give themselves an 'out' with the moderators.

Now, I'm not saying that's what you are doing. I don't know your motives. However, MANY times around here...when a person wants to piss a whole group off, they say something snarky against some vaguely defined group like 'some' DS9 fans, or 'some' VOY fans, or 'some' liberals, or 'some' conservatives. No names. Just 'some'.

This leaves EVERYONE in said group wondering if the poster is including THEM in that 'some'. And conveniently, leaves the moderators in the same predicament.

So my feeling is this: why can't we get past this mentality of dropping everyone in buckets? Pretend EVERYONE is just a Misc poster. Because the bottom line is that the 'model citizen' DS9 fans have the same level of non-existent control over other DS9 fans as the 'model citizen' Misc poster has over the latest jerkwad posting in Misc.

If you have a beef with a particular poster, then that needs to be addressed with that poster and/or with the mods. But this use of the vague and extremely general 'some rabid DS9 fans' or 'some overly sensitive and touchy VOY fans' terms are not particularly productive.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Orac Zen said:

Similarly, JM, PKTG has made it quite clear that the sorts of remarks you and I quoted are not gonna fly in this forum. She doesn't sweat every last detail in here because she doesn't have to. The "bad old days" are gone; the vast majority of posters in this forum are perfectly reasonable people who don't need to be closely monitored. She's stepped in now, we all know where we stand, and we can move on from there.

Just a quick clarification here.

I need to be clear that NONE of the remarks made in this thread where individually warnable. Certainly, some of the comments made (on BOTH sides) were not particularly productive...but I can hardly warn someone for using the term 'immature'. Or, for that matter, 'rabid'. These remarks are a far cry from calling someone a 'fucktard' (my personal favorite ), for example.

Once again, the reason why I did not step in earlier is that generally, I leave people a fair amount of latitude. And this applies to EVERYONE - not just the people I agree with. The stuff in this thread was ALL borderline, at best - on both sides. And so I left it alone. UNTIL it started getting personal and people started getting upset. THEN I stepped in - NOT to warn people, but just to get people to back off and relax....and most of all, to rethink their approach.

Now...would I PREFER that people choose their words carefully so as not to offend others? Of course I do! However, I have no plans to change the general atmosphere of this forum or the way I run it.

I can't promise ANYONE that I'm gonna nail anyone who uses the term 'immature'....or 'rabid'.

However, what I CAN promise is:

1) That both sides of an argument will receive equal treatment....and equal latitude, to the best of my ability; and
2) That if posters in a conversation where I have allowed latitude start getting personal or mean-spirited, I'll step in, just like I did in this case, and try to get EVERYONE to dial it back.

In other words, I'm am not gonna become a Nuance Nazi, and I'm not gonna start monitoring every single post to the Nth degree, nailing people on technicalities and borderline comments, and otherwise ruling with an iron fist. That is not my personality and I don't like riding people's ass 24/7/365, every time they make an ill-conceived joke or a poor choice of words.

But I HOPE people will think before they post...and I do plan to continue to allow EQUAL latitude - as long as people don't abuse that latitude by disrupting the forum or intentionally generating ill-will - on EITHER side.

 

[Malcom]

PKTrekGirl said:
Sokar was an individual. As a DS9 fan, I was given no vote in what he posted in the VOY forum. He didn't care what I thought, and he didn't ask my opinion. Nebula1 was an individual, and I doubt she consulted anyone in the VOY forum before she willfully and intentionally disrupted the DS9 forum on a regular basis.

Same with 8-4-7-2 and BOD - two posters who NO ONE was able to keep in line, as it relates to being kind and considerate of those who disagreed with them. I spent HOURS on ICQ and writing PMs to 8-4-7-2, but he didn't care WHAT I thought. And as best I can determine, BOD gloried in her snarkiness and loved every minute of it, regardless of what she did to the reputation of the VOY forum.

I agree about the term 'rabid'. It doesn't take the conversation anywhere we want it to go. It is an incendiary word.

Now, about the above-mentioned posters, it was maddening to watch these trolls get such leeway. They poisoned so many threads. I'll place "E", who was one of the first registered participants on this board, in that category too. They consistently, deliberately went onto boards and into threads just to tick off people. I left for a while because of all of the above and another poster whose name began with an 'L'.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Well, I think we have had some very deliberate trolls - some of them outrightly so, and some of them much more calculating. And then we have had some people who weren't really trolls as much as they were very opinionated and arrogant - a combination which generated, at the end of the day, much the same effect, unfortunately.

For example, 8-4-7-2 wasn't really a troll, IMO. He was just very opinionated and arrogant. And was one who saw his opinion as the CORRECT opinion - not just one of many, equally valid opinions.

But there have been others whose intentions were not even remotely sincere - they said stuff purely to piss people off. Not because they even necessarily believed what they were saying....but simply because their GOAL was to upset people.

Of course, the result was the same in both cases...but there is a subtle difference there - at least in intent.