Why First Contact is NOT a good trek movie (rant alert).

[STR]

The biggest problem I have is the Borg walking around on the outside of the Enterprise. Yes, they're cyborgs. But their bodies are still primarily flesh, and they (1) breathe and need oxygen, and (2) surely would have bad physical reactions to the absolute zero of space.

...forcefields...

 

[trevanian]

in FC, you really need the full quote, and it feels like something that Berman would have snipped to avoid annoying some tiny percentage of confused Christians who might have been offended.

No you don't. The quotation makes perfect sense excluding the amount of text Cryogenic wants to append prior to it.

Also, the preceding bulk of text prior the quote Cryogenic referred to has no reference, inferred or implied, to Christianity. That'd be in the part the part of the text actually quoted (but silently skipped over the 'Adam' bit).

the Adam reference IS what I'm referencing. That's the only farfetched justification I could find for somebody slicing it out, and it does fit with the extreme conformity factors that seem to matter to Berman.

 

[Shazam!]

But their bodies are still primarily flesh, and they (1) breathe and need oxygen

Do they?

 

[Kegg]

the Adam reference IS what I'm referencing.

Then you're quoting the wrong bulk of text, that was Cryogenic arguing for the necessity of the earlier segment of text, so, to say you agree rather obviously means you feel that that additional text is essential (I was not disagreeing with him regarding the actual quote.)

 

[Brutal Strudel]

The Borg were interesting and actually scary when they were a collective, without a single voice and totally indifferent to the suffering they inflicted. Rather than use that, the writters turned the Borg into a hive with a queen, and basically made them a bunch of zombies running around, something that had been done to death in a thousand b-movies.

I agree--though I would add that they were not merely indifferent but that they truly believed that they "improved quality of life for all species." Now that's scarier than a second-rate Cenobite--a lonely one pining for a boyfriend, no less!



Having said that, Alice Krige played the hell out of the role so that the stupidity went down painlessly--in the theaters, at least.

 

[Myasishchev]

snip

No, I agree. It's bad in pretty much every possible way, a boring, stupid embarrassment to cinema as an art form.

Also, Rush: "second-rate Cenobite," I like that.

My big bitches (outside of the obvious ones already covered here) revolve around the fact that for an action movie, the action is pretty minimal, and not well done ... that, and the non-portrayal of postWW3 Earth. I've made about 100 posts in the last decade here decrying the lack of devastation on the surface and as visible from space (no atomic winter blocking out the sun? geez, barely any clouds period.) A shuttlecraft overflight of scorched Earth, with appropriate ROAD WARRIOR dirge music, would have given you a crucifixtion, after which you'd get the resurrection with the Phoenix liftoff. But as it plays, Earth seems like it is getting along okay ... almost like we're just in a 19th century western with jukeboxes added, which doesn't give you the contrast.

I concur that the action was pretty poorly done. This'll piss Shazam off, but contrast FC with Trek 11. But, hell, to be fair, contrast it with TUC--a movie some half a decade older or more. TUC had a few action sequences, including an incredible one that also played with gravity and relied on magnetic boots. Yet the boarding of Kronos One is so much more exciting than the execution of a few more space zombies. It boils down to the fact that the Borg have never really been very good action villains.

I'm not sure that Earth should've been more messed up, especially so much as to be visible from orbit. Iirc, nuclear winter concerns are overblown. As for society being more in shambles--and showing that shambles--I can get on board with that, although one thing I enjoyed about Trek was that there was a relatively quick rebuilding after WW3, instead of the end of civilization and the species that some people forecast. Although it is interesting, and by interesting I mean dubious, that the major centers of civilization are still apparently in the northern hemisphere afterward.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Although it is interesting, and by interesting I mean dubious, that the major centers of civilization are still apparently in the northern hemisphere afterward.

One possibility that could explain why there are so few Asians in Star Trek is that Asia -- China, the Indian subcontinent -- took the brunt of the nuclear exchanges. I've sometimes wondered if World War III began as an India/China or India/Pakistan war, that spiraled badly when the nukes started to fly.

 

[WorfSucksDax]

Reminded me a bit of the Abrahms film. I enjoyed watching it, but I find it hard to think of as Canon TNG.

 

[Hober Mallow]

The Borg were interesting and actually scary when they were a collective, without a single voice and totally indifferent to the suffering they inflicted. Rather than use that, the writters turned the Borg into a hive with a queen, and basically made them a bunch of zombies running around, something that had been done to death in a thousand b-movies.

It isn't so much the change over to the "hive", but how it was done. We're expected to believe that the Queen was always a part of the Borg, that she was on the cube (at least implied to be) with Locutus, etc, etc.

I agree how it was done was just bad, but that it was done at all is my gripe. There is a big different between a collective and a hive. In world politics it's the difference between socialism and fascism. It's the difference between something interesting that hasn't been explored in any great depth in television or film and something that's been beaten to death.

Where as they could have blamed her creation on Hugh's Borg-- bringing order to the chaos created by the infection on individualism. Instead she's just there and (supposedly) was always there.

And, apparently, is still there on Voyager even though she dies in FC. (There may have been an explanation; I just don't watch VOY so couldn't tell you.)

 

[JarodRussell]

Where as they could have blamed her creation on Hugh's Borg-- bringing order to the chaos created by the infection on individualism. Instead she's just there and (supposedly) was always there.

And, apparently, is still there on Voyager even though she dies in FC. (There may have been an explanation; I just don't watch VOY so couldn't tell you.)

While I don't like the fact that the Borg reappeared after First Contact (Picard deserved to be the one who finally got rid of them by killing the Queen), it's because the Queen is just a representation of the entire Borg hive mind. Picard only killed that representation, not the mind.
Each Borg lost individuality long time ago. But THE Borg (the sum of ALL parts in the entire collective) was an individual, represented by the Queen.


I still like that concept.

 

[RoJoHen]

Where as they could have blamed her creation on Hugh's Borg-- bringing order to the chaos created by the infection on individualism. Instead she's just there and (supposedly) was always there.

And, apparently, is still there on Voyager even though she dies in FC. (There may have been an explanation; I just don't watch VOY so couldn't tell you.)

Well, as implied by First Contact, she also died on the cube all the way back in "Best of Both Worlds."

As the Queen says, "You think in such 3-dimensional terms."



I'm actually watching FC right now for the first time in a few years, and one thing that I noticed was the music during the big phaser battle (in the corridor right before Data gets captures) is the same music as when the Klingons are approaching V'Ger at the beginning of TMP. I thought it was neat.

What I'm finding I really like about this movie is that it really seems like more of an ensemble piece than any of the other TNG movies. Everybody is participating (even minor characters like Nurse Ogawa and Reg Barclay!). Was Beverly's part terribly important? No, but at least she was there doing things!

 

[Start Wreck]

I love the EMH cameo.

 

[JarodRussell]

What I'm finding I really like about this movie is that it really seems like more of an ensemble piece than any of the other TNG movies. Everybody is participating (even minor characters like Nurse Ogawa and Reg Barclay!). Was Beverly's part terribly important? No, but at least she was there doing things!

I think First Contact has also the best performances of the cast. The chemistry between all the characters is better then ever. My favorite scene is where Riker finds Deanna and Cochrane. That scene is pretty funny and Riker's reactions to everything are excellent. And they even gaveOgawa, Barclay, and the EMH in little cameos. That's how it's done!

 

[Nardpuncher]

If anyone doesn't think Picard was supposed to be some sort of Action Hero apparently missed the change from a pensive, diplomatic tea-drinking Picard to one with a sleeveless shirt and phaser rifle in one hand screaming most of the time.
Then they did it again at the end of Insurrection and pretty much the same thing at the end of Nemesis.

 

[JarodRussell]

If anyone doesn't think Picard was supposed to be some sort of Action Hero apparently missed the change from a pensive, diplomatic tea-drinking Picard to one with a sleeveless shirt and phaser rifle in one hand screaming most of the time.
Then they did it again at the end of Insurrection and pretty much the same thing at the end of Nemesis.

Screaming most of the time. 2 times.

I see Picard's actions in First Contact and Insurrection as a welcomed and not inapropriate change (in First Contact he is bitter about the Borg returning, tormented by nightmares, in Insurrection he feels younger, fresh, and is fed up by the Admiral, and it contrasts nicely with that one TV episode where Wesley tried to stop the relocalisation of a colony... Picard basically switched roles with him this time, and I like that). Do you people have problems with change?

But yeah, Nemesis should be forgotten about. Essentially everyone was out of character in that movie.

 

[Shazam!]

If anyone doesn't think Picard was supposed to be some sort of Action Hero apparently missed the change from a pensive, diplomatic tea-drinking Picard to one with a sleeveless shirt and phaser rifle in one hand screaming most of the time.

Yeah, they should've just had him sitting in the briefing room crying.

 

[Myasishchev]

Where as they could have blamed her creation on Hugh's Borg-- bringing order to the chaos created by the infection on individualism. Instead she's just there and (supposedly) was always there.

And, apparently, is still there on Voyager even though she dies in FC. (There may have been an explanation; I just don't watch VOY so couldn't tell you.)

While I don't like the fact that the Borg reappeared after First Contact (Picard deserved to be the one who finally got rid of them by killing the Queen), it's because the Queen is just a representation of the entire Borg hive mind. Picard only killed that representation, not the mind.
Each Borg lost individuality long time ago. But THE Borg (the sum of ALL parts in the entire collective) was an individual, represented by the Queen.


I still like that concept.

Why would the Borg need a representative? It's not like they're negotiating with individualist species.

I'll grant that is sort of the impression one gets from BoBW, but that was back when the Borg were ideological crusaders, maybe even altruists, who wanted to "improve quality of life" and not the sadistic, genocidal, Omega-particle seeking retards of Voyager and TrekLit.

 

[Harvey]

I'm actually watching FC right now for the first time in a few years, and one thing that I noticed was the music during the big phaser battle (in the corridor right before Data gets captures) is the same music as when the Klingons are approaching V'Ger at the beginning of TMP. I thought it was neat.

It's Goldsmith's Klingon Theme, which he used as Worf's Theme in First Contact and Insurrection. I'm not sure if it crops up in the Nemesis score or not. It's also used as the Klingon Theme in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.

It's also heard in the movie when Worf first appears on the bridge, and Riker asks him if he still remembers how to fire phasers. Its prominent in Insurrection when Worf smashes the Son'a drone out of the air with his phaser rifle ("Definitely feeling agressive tendencies, sir!")

 

[RoJoHen]

I'm actually watching FC right now for the first time in a few years, and one thing that I noticed was the music during the big phaser battle (in the corridor right before Data gets captures) is the same music as when the Klingons are approaching V'Ger at the beginning of TMP. I thought it was neat.

It's Goldsmith's Klingon Theme, which he used as Worf's Theme in First Contact and Insurrection. I'm not sure if it crops up in the Nemesis score or not. It's also used as the Klingon Theme in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.

It's also heard in the movie when Worf first appears on the bridge, and Riker asks him if he still remembers how to fire phasers. Its prominent in Insurrection when Worf smashes the Son'a drone out of the air with his phaser rifle ("Definitely feeling agressive tendencies, sir!")

Oh, that's cool. I never really pay attention to the music in movies, especially in huge action scenes when there are a lot of other distracting sounds.

Either way, yeah, loved FC, mostly for everything the cast got to do. And I did appreciate Insurrection's attempt to maintain some kind of consistency by bringing back the character of Daniels (as well as introducing the new Trill helm lady). It's like, "Oh, look, this ship actually has a crew!"

 

[Harvey]

Watching Insurrection again recently, I noticed how much it felt like an episode of the series. I don't mean that in the pejorative way the comment is usually applied. Rather, that the Enterprise-E felt like a ship with a crew and more things to attend to than just the principal threat of the moment.