Why First Contact is NOT a good trek movie (rant alert).

[RoJoHen]

Watching Insurrection again recently, I noticed how much it felt like an episode of the series. I don't mean that in the pejorative way the comment is usually applied. Rather, that the Enterprise-E felt like a ship with a crew and more things to attend to than just the principal threat of the moment.

I agree, and that's probably one of the reasons I actually enjoy Insurrection. It's not as grand and epic as it could have been for the big screen, but it would have made a helluva 2-parter on TV. And while it may have had silly scenes (like Worf singing and having a pimple, or Data serving as a flotation device), I still think that as a whole it was a more true to the spirit of TNG than it could have been.

 

[Kegg]

^
Insurrection definitely has a very nice sensibility about it in places. It may not work, but it's still Michael Piller, and he goddamn well knew these characters and how they worked on a daily basis. That at least shows through in the script.

Why would the Borg need a representative? It's not like they're negotiating with individualist species.

Plot point to explain what they're all about, to talk them up. That's basically the role of Q in "Q Who?", also, the guy with a privileged knowledge of the species who can give us the skinny more or less. The Borg Queen was there to ooze charisma and menace and so on. Was she necessary? Well, Aliens didn't need a Queen (alright it did YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN), though the design for Alice Krige's character was very effective. Eh. I'll just leave at this: She worked, but she didn't make much sense.

I'll grant that is sort of the impression one gets from BoBW, but that was back when the Borg were ideological crusaders, maybe even altruists, who wanted to "improve quality of life" and not the sadistic, genocidal, Omega-particle seeking retards of Voyager and TrekLit.

They seemed more genocidal early on. Before they got into assimilating people, they were all about collecting technology - the implication was they'd take all your technological data and kill the people in the way.

 

[Nardpuncher]

If anyone doesn't think Picard was supposed to be some sort of Action Hero apparently missed the change from a pensive, diplomatic tea-drinking Picard to one with a sleeveless shirt and phaser rifle in one hand screaming most of the time.
Then they did it again at the end of Insurrection and pretty much the same thing at the end of Nemesis.

Screaming most of the time. 2 times.

I see Picard's actions in First Contact and Insurrection as a welcomed and not inapropriate change (in First Contact he is bitter about the Borg returning, tormented by nightmares, in Insurrection he feels younger, fresh, and is fed up by the Admiral, and it contrasts nicely with that one TV episode where Wesley tried to stop the relocalisation of a colony... Picard basically switched roles with him this time, and I like that). Do you people have problems with change?

But yeah, Nemesis should be forgotten about. Essentially everyone was out of character in that movie.

No matter how you try to rationalize it...it was a sad attempt that certainly didn't win me or many others over. It was just a poor attempt to cover up a story that didn't have much going for it. That applies to all the TNG movies.
They even had the stupid ticking clock of death counting down to the time the big gun fires in the last two movies!

 

[Brutal Strudel]

^
Insurrection definitely has a very nice sensibility about it in places. It may not work, but it's still Michael Piller, and he goddamn well knew these characters and how they worked on a daily basis. That at least shows through in the script.

Why would the Borg need a representative? It's not like they're negotiating with individualist species.

Plot point to explain what they're all about, to talk them up. That's basically the role of Q in "Q Who?", also, the guy with a privileged knowledge of the species who can give us the skinny more or less. The Borg Queen was there to ooze charisma and menace and so on. Was she necessary? Well, Aliens didn't need a Queen (alright it did YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN), though the design for Alice Krige's character was very effective. Eh. I'll just leave at this: She worked, but she didn't make much sense.

I'll grant that is sort of the impression one gets from BoBW, but that was back when the Borg were ideological crusaders, maybe even altruists, who wanted to "improve quality of life" and not the sadistic, genocidal, Omega-particle seeking retards of Voyager and TrekLit.

They seemed more genocidal early on. Before they got into assimilating people, they were all about collecting technology - the implication was they'd take all your technological data and kill the people in the way.

All true but once more, I feel the need to address the biggest weakness in the Borg Queen: her prime motivation boils down to her being horny (or lonely). It turns out Lucutus was not intended primarily to speak to the primitive, authority driven cultures of the Federation but to be her consort. And now, rather than just go ahead and complete her damn mission, she jeopardizes everything by trying to make a consort of Data, a primitive cybernetic device that Locutus said would be obsolete in the new order (retcon: Locutus already sensed Data as a rival for the Queen's affections and was just being catty).

So: the Borg go from being a force of nature incapable of conceiving of their own evil to the pawns of a dominatrix who just wants Amanda Hugginkiss (say it out loud).

Bullshit.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

When people offer up plot holes as the primary criterion for why a movie is or is not good, they lose me in boredom. Who cares? Some of the most tightly plotted stuff in the world is drivel. Even much of what can be called well-plotted is not necessarily so because of its unassailable logic but because of the intriguing play of events. On the list of elements that make a movie worth watching or not, as far as I'm concerned, the solidity of the plot logic ranks very low.

"First Contact" is a pretty good movie as Trek movies go, and can be enjoyed quite a bit by people who already give a damn about Star Trek. Abrams's movie is far better, and the chief reason it is far more successful and popular is that it offers up more that's entertaining to people who aren't already invested in Trek.

 

[ALF]

If anyone doesn't think Picard was supposed to be some sort of Action Hero apparently missed the change from a pensive, diplomatic tea-drinking Picard to one with a sleeveless shirt and phaser rifle in one hand screaming most of the time.

Yeah, they should've just had him sitting in the briefing room crying.

Picard... in the briefing room for two hours crying??
For two hours!! That's a hell of a hard sell for Trekkies. For those who love 'chick flicks'... hmmm. Maybe.

At the end, Riker and Lily could come in and help him glue his little ships together. Happy ending.

 

[Shazam!]

Crying would be okay because he did it in Generations, so it's in character.

 

[ALF]

But in Generations he had lost his family... something he was powerless to prevent.

In First Contact he had a vendetta to settle with the Borg and it was up to him with his knowledge of how the hive mind worked.

 

[Shazam!]

I'm not actually advocating Picard spending his time in the movie crying : /

 

[ALF]

^^ Okay, great. That makes two of us. Can you imagine? Here comes Riker again with the tissues.

RIKER
"Riker to Lt. Worf. We need more tissues in the ready room."

PICARD
(sobbing in the background)

 

[RoJoHen]

Picard got stabbed in the chest beating the crap out of Naussicans. It's not like he's never been violent and angry before.

 

[Kegg]

So: the Borg go from being a force of nature incapable of conceiving of their own evil to the pawns of a dominatrix who just wants Amanda Hugginkiss (say it out loud).

Bullshit.

But yeah, as a concept, the Borg Queen is pretty terrible and the more one thinks about her both the less sense she makes and more damaging she is to the Borg as an idea. To me, though, she was at least written with a degree of menace and ably performed by Alice Krige - to compare to the latest film, Nero may not make much sense, but he's also boring and uninvolving, tiresomely written and stiffly acted. That's not to be too unfair to Bana, who is a fine actor - I don't think anyone could have made much of his material, in fairness.

Hm. Star Trek films just don't have a very good track record with villains, in all honesty.

 

[Nardpuncher]

Picard got stabbed in the chest beating the crap out of Naussicans. It's not like he's never been violent and angry before.

But wasn't it that incident that tought him to be more careful and not so unruly?

 

[RoJoHen]

Picard got stabbed in the chest beating the crap out of Naussicans. It's not like he's never been violent and angry before.

But wasn't it that incident that tought him to be more careful and not so unruly?

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was the opposite. That incident taught him to take risks. Without fighting the Naussican, he remained a poor, forgettable little science officer.

Still, if the Borg assimilated you and forced you to participate in the slaughter of thousands of people...and THEN traveled back in time to pretty much destroy your entire civilization AND tried to take over your ship AND captured your favorite Android...I mean, I don't think you'd keep that cool of a head, even if you are a diplomat.

 

[The Wormhole]

Hm. Star Trek films just don't have a very good track record with villains, in all honesty.

Well, not everyone can be Khan or Chang.

Although, Kruge may not have been too menacing a villain, but I did like the way he talked. "Kruge, the planet is blowing up arund us!" "Exhilirating, isn't it?"

Sybok was an interesting idea, Spock having a brother who was considered a radical in Vulcan society and exiled. The execution was lacking.

Soran would have made a fine villain of the week in the TV show, but wasn't quite "grand" enough for a movie.

Like others have said, the Borg Queen may not have made sense, but she does work within the movie. Her later appearances on Voyager kind of ruined the character, though.

And I actually liked Shinzon.

The less said about Ru'afo and Nero, the better. They are probably the only two Trek movie villains who are true disappointments.

 

[Kegg]

The less said about Ru'afo and Nero, the better. They are probably the only two Trek movie villains who are true disappointments.

I'd add Shinzon, Soran and Sybok (enough with the S-names, already) to that list as unequivocal failures, though McDowell does acquit himself rather well.

Which leaves just Kruge as okay, and the Queen as something that works in spite of herself.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I appreciate everyone who has defended this movie in here. It's always disappointing to me when there are are anti-First Contact threads on the forum. I keep hoping they'll go away due to lack of posts, but every time someone posts in here, that awful thread title gets bumped up . It's a small consolation if at least the posts aren't as harsh as the thread title.

I still can't believe there's so much criticism of this movie. Aside from some people online who are just anti anything TNG in general, I'd never seen anyone bash the movie and couldn't imagine why anyone would until I joined this forum. I've watched it many, many times, and even when I try, I have a hard time finding anything wrong with it. I've said it's a little manic in pacing at the beginning (not nearly as leisurely as "The Wrath of Khan", for example), but honestly, when I watch it, from start to finish there's really no part of it that I don't enjoy on some level. It's just so consistently watchable.

As for the Borg Queen, I can understand some of the claims that she changed the whole concept of the Borg in a disappointing way since being faceless, emotionless parasites that can't be reasoned with or manipulated by appealing to their vanity was part of their original appeal. At the same time, though, I can't help but not care as I watch the movie. I find her interactions with Picard and Data just captivating and her appearance and performance so intriguing. I just don't think the movie would have worked very well if the whole time, any interaction between the Enterprise crew and Borg would have been between an individual crew member and a bunch of simultaneously speaking Borg voices (like in "The Best of Both Worlds"). Data's seduction was pretty damn fun too, even if Brent Spiner was a bit over-the-top...it was a more endearing than irritating over-the-top (i.e. "Generations") methinks.

 

[Myasishchev]

So: the Borg go from being a force of nature incapable of conceiving of their own evil to the pawns of a dominatrix who just wants Amanda Hugginkiss (say it out loud).

Bullshit.

But yeah, as a concept, the Borg Queen is pretty terrible and the more one thinks about her both the less sense she makes and more damaging she is to the Borg as an idea. To me, though, she was at least written with a degree of menace and ably performed by Alice Krige - to compare to the latest film, Nero may not make much sense, but he's also boring and uninvolving, tiresomely written and stiffly acted. That's not to be too unfair to Bana, who is a fine actor - I don't think anyone could have made much of his material, in fairness.

Hm. Star Trek films just don't have a very good track record with villains, in all honesty.

I dunno. 8/11 for me. I liked all the villains except in FC and Insurrection and maybe Nemesis. Yeah, for all Generation's faults, of which there are many, Soran wasn't one of them, and he's one of the reasons why I still kinda like the movie regardless of the fact it's objectively pretty bad. Soran had a proper motivation for his crimes, was reasonably well written, and was very well portrayed by MacDowell.

And, also, I don't care what anyone says, Sybok was awesome. God was a good villain too.

While I agree Nero was botched, I thought Eric Bana brought something to the character that was idiosyncratic and interesting. "Hi, Christopher, I'm Nero"--that was different, at least.

I can get behind the notion that Krige tried hard and did the best she could with what was there, but I still felt the Queen was a waste of space and time. Kinda life Ruafo a film later--damnit, that was Salieri, but even he couldn't quite overcome the material.

 

[Kegg]

Yeah, for all Generation's faults, of which there are many, Soran wasn't one of them, and he's one of the reasons why I still kinda like the movie regardless of the fact it's objectively pretty bad.

Soran's a good idea for a villain, with some good lines and motivation and Malcolm McDowell, but he still isn't that good. His reasoning is completely preposterous - he allies with the Duras sisters and helps them get trilithium, fights the Romulans, anatagonises the Enterprise, sets up a way to get into the Nexus by annihilating a planet when, you know, he could fly into it. He's a little too small for his shoes of epic movie villain also, and I was sick of the 'dead wife' canard long before Nero came along. It worked for Khan, but that doesn't mean every Trek villain needs it and Khan had the added advantage of us actually knowing who his wife was (though, er, given the misogyny inherent in the character that might be a strike against... whatever, Soran still sucks...)

McDowell never manages to come off as menacing either, merely a petulant, irksome old man who's off on a daft scheme that a couple of other geriatrics need to thwart. If McDowell isn't creeping the hell out of your audience you're doing something rather wrong, really.

Also, why is it both Soran and Nero have to spout 'badass' dialogue about James T. Kirk's role in history, anyway? Stupid time travel plots...

I thought Eric Bana brought something to the character that was idiosyncratic and interesting. "Hi, Christopher, I'm Nero"--that was different, at least.

That line was good. I'll give Bana and the screenwriters that. It's disarming, but it's also about his only good moment in the movie.

I know Nero is in very little of the movie and is (wisely) not the focus. I didn't want him to be complicated or deep - just fun and interesting, a bad guy I can really root to see get blown up. The Borg Queen probably makes less sense, but with the performance and mind-screw character dialogue she's got, she at least serves the outward function of a summer movie villain a lot better.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Generations earns my undying hate for hiring Malcolm "Little Alex," "Caligula," "Herbert G. Wells" McDowell and then having him take a backseat the insufferable Kl'eavage Sisters.

Oh, and to clarify: I do like First Contact--I adored it when it was in its theatrical run (meeeemories...), though even then I had problems with the idea of the Queen. As Kegg points out, her character, though ill-conceived, is well-written and even better-acted. Alice Krige is a marvel.