Why First Contact is NOT a good trek movie (rant alert).

[CobraCommander]

In terms of TNG films, it is the best one. What bothered me was how much better and epic this film should have been. First, the film should have been stretched and broken into two parts (like Kill Bill). Second, the film should have shown how the Borg conquered the Federation, Romulans, Vulcans, and Klignons using their vast fleet of cubes and spheres. Third, the Ent-E (with a multi-race crew of survivors) could have gone into the near past and traveled into the Borg heartland to bring an end to the central hive (whatever or whomever controled it). This would have been like TMP with the awe factor but without the anti-climactic piece of space junk for an arch-nemesis. Picard should have sacrificed himself for the good of all sentient life. this would have led to Riker finally being in command in the next film and added more dramatic depth.

 

[Bones2]

In terms of TNG films, it is the best one. What bothered me was how much better and epic this film should have been. First, the film should have been stretched and broken into two parts (like Kill Bill). Second, the film should have shown how the Borg conquered the Federation, Romulans, Vulcans, and Klignons using their vast fleet of cubes and spheres. Third, the Ent-E (with a multi-race crew of survivors) could have gone into the near past and traveled into the Borg heartland to bring an end to the central hive (whatever or whomever controled it). This would have been like TMP with the awe factor but without the anti-climactic piece of space junk for an arch-nemesis. Picard should have sacrificed himself for the good of all sentient life. this would have led to Riker finally being in command in the next film and added more dramatic depth.

That would have been bloody awful. And remember that DS9 was going on at the time.

 

[JarodRussell]

In terms of TNG films, it is the best one. What bothered me was how much better and epic this film should have been. First, the film should have been stretched and broken into two parts (like Kill Bill). Second, the film should have shown how the Borg conquered the Federation, Romulans, Vulcans, and Klignons using their vast fleet of cubes and spheres. Third, the Ent-E (with a multi-race crew of survivors) could have gone into the near past and traveled into the Borg heartland to bring an end to the central hive (whatever or whomever controled it). This would have been like TMP with the awe factor but without the anti-climactic piece of space junk for an arch-nemesis. Picard should have sacrificed himself for the good of all sentient life. this would have led to Riker finally being in command in the next film and added more dramatic depth.

Where is the First Contact part in this?

 

[Hober Mallow]

The Borg were interesting and actually scary when they were a collective, without a single voice and totally indifferent to the suffering they inflicted. Rather than use that, the writters turned the Borg into a hive with a queen, and basically made them a bunch of zombies running around, something that had been done to death in a thousand b-movies.

 

[trevanian]

Jesus. Don't sum of you people get your panties in a wad? You're awfully touchy for a single critique of a fairly unremarkable blockbuster movie. And it seems none of you knows the first thing about classic literature, or cares a jot for the butchering of the English language.

Picard's version? "And he piled upon the whale's white hump a sum of all the rage and hate felt by his whole race. If his chest had been a cannon, he would have shot his heart upon it." The Herman Melville version?

<snip>

"He piled upon the whale’s white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart’s shell upon it." Yeah, really.

You included a whole chunk which wasn't even remotely relevant to the Picard quote. Once removed, it's clear the chief difference is the Melville quote is a trifle wordier and includes a reference to Adam. I'd agree that if you quote from classic literature you shouldn't fudge like that, but it's not quite as severe as you wanted to suggest.

The sentence you snipped out is critical to that passage. It highlights the emotional profundity of Ahab's quest, and taps into why human beings behave in the ways they do, objectifying their failings by displacing them onto others. And that Picard should go on to quote a single sentence -- the shorter of the two sentences -- incorrectly is galling, and manifestly stupid. Just another example of Hollywood ruthlessly dumbing down everything in its path for a mass audience, in its eternal pursuit of the almighty dollar.

Agree most seriously with you on most all of that. I would qualify the Meyer-quote thing however ... I feel that Meyer's over/misuse of the quotes has a kind of DennisMillerPopCulture appeal to some, so it is kind of proto-Tarantino (probably why the latter pinched the 'klingon' proverb for KILL BILL), so rewriting quotes for effect has a bit of allowability, if that were a word.

in FC, you really need the full quote, and it feels like something that Berman would have snipped to avoid annoying some tiny percentage of confused Christians who might have been offended.

Either that, or it wasn't Moore's line at all ... I used to have an issue of a screenwriting mag with an interview on the guy who wrote RUSH HOUR indicating HE worked on the FC script. Since Moore and Braga were on from the beginning, he must have been hired to 'polish' their work (though I don't ever hear anything from Paramount or the principals about this anywhere), so for all we know the whole 'we fall back' thing might be his, a sop to movie heroic stuff to plus up the main character.

Since I picked up TVH and SFS for two bucks apiece on DVD (look for the used Spanish versions, they are the same as the English, just with different covers), I realized FC is the only Trek movie (outside of the abrams) that I don't own. Now I've always been annoyed by FC, but I love the Phoenix takeoff and most of the miniature effects in the film, so I'm guessing I must be MIGHTILY annoyed by the rest if I haven't even picked it up.

My big bitches (outside of the obvious ones already covered here) revolve around the fact that for an action movie, the action is pretty minimal, and not well done ... that, and the non-portrayal of postWW3 Earth. I've made about 100 posts in the last decade here decrying the lack of devastation on the surface and as visible from space (no atomic winter blocking out the sun? geez, barely any clouds period.) A shuttlecraft overflight of scorched Earth, with appropriate ROAD WARRIOR dirge music, would have given you a crucifixtion, after which you'd get the resurrection with the Phoenix liftoff. But as it plays, Earth seems like it is getting along okay ... almost like we're just in a 19th century western with jukeboxes added, which doesn't give you the contrast.

 

[Kegg]

in FC, you really need the full quote, and it feels like something that Berman would have snipped to avoid annoying some tiny percentage of confused Christians who might have been offended.

No you don't. The quotation makes perfect sense excluding the amount of text Cryogenic wants to append prior to it.

Also, the preceding bulk of text prior the quote Cryogenic referred to has no reference, inferred or implied, to Christianity. That'd be in the part the part of the text actually quoted (but silently skipped over the 'Adam' bit).

 

[JarodRussell]

In my opinion, First Contact only has one wasted opportunity: Ben Sisko should have been in command of the Defiant. But that would have created an entirely different movie. The whole dynamic because Sisko lost his wife to the Borg, and Picard's guilt, because he was essentially responsible for her and many other's deaths... I think that would have been awesome.

 

[SeerSGB]

The Borg were interesting and actually scary when they were a collective, without a single voice and totally indifferent to the suffering they inflicted. Rather than use that, the writters turned the Borg into a hive with a queen, and basically made them a bunch of zombies running around, something that had been done to death in a thousand b-movies.

It isn't so much the change over to the "hive", but how it was done. We're expected to believe that the Queen was always a part of the Borg, that she was on the cube (at least implied to be) with Locutus, etc, etc.

Where as they could have blamed her creation on Hugh's Borg-- bringing order to the chaos created by the infection on individualism. Instead she's just there and (supposedly) was always there.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Yet it's still better than Trek XI. Weird.

Umm..no it isn't.

Rob

 

[Shazam!]

Yet it's still better than Trek XI. Weird.

Umm..no it isn't.

Rob

Yes it is.

 

[RobertScorpio]

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=103892

Whenever someone says anything negative about Trek XI, they must be wrong because of how successful it was. So if 'majority rules' then it follows that FC is better than Trek XI, as evidenced by the above thread.

I sooooo hate it when people use the argument "simply because so/so made more money, and more people saw it, doesn't make it a better movie"...yeah, well, that is true to some degree. So I guess all those LOTR movies sucked, and NEMESIS is the best Star Trek movie.

It REALLY comes down to personal opinion. You think FC is better than XI; I don't and one reason and one reason alone is why FC fails...

1. Ruins the Borg. The introduction of the Queen makes Q/Guinan look stupid, based on all they said in previous episodes AND guts the 'zombies in space' thing, "they keep coming and coming" aspect, by having a Queen. From that point on the Borg were no longer a cool hip 'bad guy' race; they became just your typical 'bumpy headed' alien that TNG era Trek is known for.

And what XI delivers in spades over FC? NEW FANS, not just pandering to the 'dorks' of Star Trek (all of us).

It puts Spock/Uhura together, to be hip and sexy. I love to listen to old time fans whine about Spock/Uhura and their sexy relationship. Hearing a large group of TREK fans complain about it really makes me laugh. Nearly each week Conan makes off-handed remarks about TREK fan's and their dorky 'sexless' lives. And each week the audience laughs; laughs because it is the general impression for many out there in the regular world that Star Trek fans are 'out of it' when it comes to social interaction. This movie, XI, tries to shift that away, and what does it get? TREK fans complaining about having subtle 'sex' content between Uhura and Spock. There isn't anything wrong with SEX in a movie; and, not to put to fine a point on it? There is nothing wrong with good ole' hetero sex too!

When I saw XI I saw teenagers, not a bunch of middle aged couch potatos in Klingon out fits. I saw regular people, non-trek fans, for the first time at a TREK movie on the opening day.

TREK XI's crew already has more character to them than Picard's crew, who all seemed to be going through the motions. I hate to say it, but TNG, as each year goes by, is shrinking into history. The movies killed them, an FC was the first step. Insurrection was the next step; and Nemesis was the death blow.

TREK XI; Better story...more compelling characters...better FX...better music...better drama...and...AND...oh yeah...HIPNESS..

FC...over rated

GENERATIONS...the best TNG movie!!!

 

[Shazam!]

I bet the sequel is called Str Trk. Y'know, if they're trying to be hip an' all.

 

[thumbtack]

TNG, as each year goes by, is shrinking into history.

True, but it still makes me sad whenever someone points out that those shows can never be upgraded to HD without spending a fortune. I would have preferred they not disappear altogether. For me the prime universe is still alive and unchanged, since it exists in an alternate reality. Maybe that's why I had no problem with rebooting.

Oh, well. At least their four movies weren't mixed at video resolution. They can live on in the coming HD era.

 

[The Wormhole]

It puts Spock/Uhura together, to be hip and sexy. I love to listen to old time fans whine about Spock/Uhura and their sexy relationship. Hearing a large group of TREK fans complain about it really makes me laugh. Nearly each week Conan makes off-handed remarks about TREK fan's and their dorky 'sexless' lives. And each week the audience laughs; laughs because it is the general impression for many out there in the regular world that Star Trek fans are 'out of it' when it comes to social interaction. This movie, XI, tries to shift that away, and what does it get? TREK fans complaining about having subtle 'sex' content between Uhura and Spock. There isn't anything wrong with SEX in a movie; and, not to put to fine a point on it? There is nothing wrong with good ole' hetero sex too!

My issues with Spock and Uhura's relationship has nothing to do with "ZOMG! Sex! Get it away! Get it away!" But rather, it makes no sense. Two characters in all Star Trek who I would never have thought of getting together are Spock and Uhura. Just watch TOS. What do the two have in common? Nothing. Never was it hinted that they had feelings for each other. Never was it hinted that they thought of one another as anything more than co-workers. In fact, I remember the scene in The Man Trap, Uhura is describing the beauty of the moon on clear night's sky, Spock just ignores her saying Vulcan has no moon. The two don't relate to each other at all.

Oh, but this is an alternate timeline, things are different you say. Well, the two of them are still the same people, essentially. What do they see in each other in this timeline that they didn't in the other one?

And FYI, we saw no indication that they were having sex. They probably are, but there's nothing definitive on the issue.

When I saw XI I saw teenagers, not a bunch of middle aged couch potatos in Klingon out fits. I saw regular people, non-trek fans, for the first time at a TREK movie on the opening day.

Good for you. I for one prefer the company of couch potatoes in Klingon outfits over teenagers. But then I prefer the company of anyone over teenagers.

 

[Kegg]

We were all teenagers once.

To put this another way: How many of us weren't watching Star Trek as teens? Honestly now.

So the teen audience is and has always been important, even when those teens were us. Lifelong attachment to franchises tend to begin young and all 'at.

And it's not like First Contact was tremendously unpopular with teens either. It was the most successful Trek film of the 1990s and at the time considered a rather fun action-adventure vehicle - you know, something the kids at the cinema wanted to see. Not as much as the new flick, obviously, but same difference.

 

[The Wormhole]

We were all teenagers once.

Selective memory allows me to forget that. I'm all the happier for it too.

 

[RoJoHen]

Yet it's still better than Trek XI. Weird.

Umm..no it isn't.

Rob

Yes it is.

What a compelling debate!

 

[Harvey]

This is not an argument, it's just contradiction!

...No it isn't.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

My big bitches (outside of the obvious ones already covered here) revolve around the fact that for an action movie, the action is pretty minimal, and not well done ...

I've never rated Frakes' direction of First Contact highly. I think he does a better job with Insurrection, but I also think that the open vistas he had to work with helped; those gave that film scope. First Contact is a claustrophobic film, but that's because the script doesn't call for anything more than that. It feels limited to a couple of sets in the way that an episode of Voyager would be limited to a couple of sets. Everything's television-scale, here.

and the non-portrayal of postWW3 Earth. I've made about 100 posts in the last decade here decrying the lack of devastation on the surface and as visible from space (no atomic winter blocking out the sun? geez, barely any clouds period.) A shuttlecraft overflight of scorched Earth, with appropriate ROAD WARRIOR dirge music, would have given you a crucifixtion, after which you'd get the resurrection with the Phoenix liftoff. But as it plays, Earth seems like it is getting along okay ... almost like we're just in a 19th century western with jukeboxes added, which doesn't give you the contrast.

More context for the era would have helped.

However, that really gets into the film's major problem -- it doesn't know which story it is. The film has two stories -- the Borg, and Zefram Cochrane -- and they have absolutely nothing to do with one another. The time spent on Cochrane takes away from the Borg. The time spent on the Borg takes away from Cochrane. The storylines run parallel the whole damn way, and they never connect.

If they wanted to do a story about Cochrane and the first warp flight, they should have focused on that. If they wanted to do a story about the Borg assimilating the Enterprise, they should have focused on that. Instead, they did both, and ended up serving neither entirely well.

First Contact is a weak film. I don't get the love for it.

 

[AJBryant]

The biggest problem I have is the Borg walking around on the outside of the Enterprise. Yes, they're cyborgs. But their bodies are still primarily flesh, and they (1) breathe and need oxygen, and (2) surely would have bad physical reactions to the absolute zero of space.

When I saw them walking around like that, it was a face-palm moment for me, and ruined the entire movie. I can handle a certain amount of "suspension of disbelief," but that was a physical impossibility that I've never seen explained.

By the way, I agree with Allyn. They should have told one story or the other -- both were ill-served by the way the film ended up.