Be clear what I mean, the MACO aren't stupid stupid, they just would have to be more like away team specialists for something like that. Not just the guys with the guns but the guys with the tricorders, or alternatively the actual security force on the ship, which woould make sense.
Why dose Starfleet medical and science share a common uniform configuration?
- Thread starter SS.Scientific
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Most IRL militaries would to an extent disagree with you as they place both the security team and the people who shoot the weapons (though not always maintain them) in the same Department. Where they agree (as do I) is that the same individual shouldn't be doing both roles at the same time... rather the Weapons Officer should be on the bridge and concentrating on external defence and the Security Chief should be below decks co-ordinating the internal defence, with the Bridge Communications Officer acting as relay to the command staff.
Well, that's funny cos the command qualification is frequently held by most Chief Engineers in the US Navy and is mandatory for all "Command Officers" on submarines as part of their career progression and yet they very much have both Engineering Departments, Deck Departments and some even have Executive Departments.
Yeah, that's what I found to be the case. Which is why I think that executive style leadership training is important for department heads, consistent with their placement in the chain of command and moving up and down.
I fully agree that they should be in the same department. Tactical & Security should be inter-related and under the same branch.
I fully agree. The WSO (Weapons System Officer) should be it's own role that is seperate from the Vessel/Base/Facility security and coordinate with the Bridge or Operations center on the action going on.
I have no issue with "The Captain" being the lead, but SNW has gone to the next level in terms of making it a TRUE Ensemble cast.
Even with Pike as the lead, everybody has their own episodes and it isn't dominated by a "Big 3" or "Big 4" or whatever # of important actors you think is more important than the rest of the entire ensemble cast.
You do realize that Petty Officers/NCOs are a vital part of any military's leadership, right?
The real life reason for the colours is that colour TVs were a new thing in TOS's time so the studio wanted bright colours to show it off. And we've gone from there.
As others have said, recent shows have added white as a medical colour. And I recall in the first Kelvin movie seeing crewman in green and other weird colours which could mean anything. But they're trying to work within a framework which began with "sell colour TVs and have bright colours" mixed with "what colour looks good on who" (hence Data being "operations" not science and TNG switching red and yellow) and it being a TV show first and foremost.
As others have said, recent shows have added white as a medical colour. And I recall in the first Kelvin movie seeing crewman in green and other weird colours which could mean anything. But they're trying to work within a framework which began with "sell colour TVs and have bright colours" mixed with "what colour looks good on who" (hence Data being "operations" not science and TNG switching red and yellow) and it being a TV show first and foremost.
But they wouldn't be part of the command division.
You're equating ability to take on leadership roles with being in the command division.
Captain sisko is a qualified engineer, but he is in command division not ops.
There's almost no evidence that the command division is a leadership role for all departments, instead we continuously see specific departments having leadership who wear the same colors.
Seems almost undeniable that science and ops manage themselves in general.
Command isn't directly in the leadership structure, they might be a side channel for managing individuals but there's no reason to think they're ever down in engineering telling people what to do.
The Command division may simply be where people who aren't dedicated Operations or Sciences personnel go. That could cover a wide range from bridge/deck officers, to general services, to even public relations. Not everyone in Command is destined for senior management, much less a captain's chair, IMO. Some may actually find more opportunities outside of the Command division (like certain commodores)...
No, I'm pretty sure that's what you're doing.
Sisko is an excellent example of what I was taking about. A qualified engineer, who is also a qualified command officer (unrestricted (space) warfare officer in USN parlance) and so is eligible to command a starship.
Trip, Scotty and LaForge wore the same hats during their tenures as ChEng and LaForge became a Starship Captain in at least one timeline.
And at least in the Flight Control, Engineering and Security Departments are often lead by officers who are also command-qualified (Trip, Reed, Scotty, Spock, Crusher, Data, LaForge, Worf, Dax, Tuvok) and so could be assigned billets where they wore Command colours but chose to wear Operations, Sciences or Medical uniform for the assignments that we saw because they felt it most appropriate.
Science... to a degree, at least by TNG, but the ranking Operations Department officer is generally in the chain-of-command and typically fairly high in it
Huh?
Command is at the top of the leadership structure, at least the roles (CO, XO and the largely unseen junior Duty Officers) that are universally assigned to that Division.
Agreed 100%. The "command division" seems to have little or nothing to do with who can actually take command. I've said many times that "control division" might have caused less confusion.
TMoST is the earliest public source, I'm pretty sure.
On a ship, there are really only two people who are not part of a department. The CO is on a higher plane, above such mundane things as departments. The XO is over all departments and works especially closely with the Admin department.
Two or maybe three separate and mostly unrelated things there. Weapons control is highly technical and centralized, lots of sophisticated equipment and systems. Internal security is mostly disciplinary and policing, running the brig, guarding a few sensitive spaces and sentry watch in port, and as far as I know has always been quite separate from weapons and fire control in any navy. In the USN MA rates do that job, though other rates or non-rated personnel are often detailed for the more routine guard-duty aspects.
The third thing, that is often shown done by security personnel is ship's landing force. Traditionally in the USN landing force personnel were drawn from all departments based on a ship-wide assignment bill (roster).
I'm not sure most chief engineers have completed command leadership training or such, if that's what you are referring to. But they are unrestricted line officers, and as such potential executive or commanding officers. All department heads on a USN ship are line officers except for supply and medical.
Around the turn of the 20th century, the USN decided that line officers needed to understand engineering and propulsion since that's what moved their ships into action, and the separate Engineer Corps was absorbed into the line. The Royal Navy tried the same thing a few years later but switched back after WW1 to Engineering being a non-ship-command career. There are pros and cons of both systems and people on both sides who propose changing to the other system, but in general both have worked well.
Perhaps interesting: If engineering had remained a separate corps in the USN, we would have had different people as the first carrier admiral (Joseph M. Reeves), WW2 Vice CNO (Frederick Horne), and the highest ranking WW2 Admiral (William D. Leahy). All started in engineering at the Naval Academy.
I'm not up on the exact minutia I admit, but Weapons Control (inc EOD, FC/FT. GM, MN) and Internal Security (primarily MA) are both Deck Department and definitely distinct from Engineering. However, they are arguably part of "Command" in the Starfleet sense as Seaman ratings and therefore similar to Boatswain's Mates (particularly in the Coxswain role), Quartermasters, SB/SWCC.
Again, not up on the exact minutia (and I believe there are subtle differences between surface warfare and submarine URL officers here) but given that XO/CO is pretty much a mandatory step for URL officers then I would hope that OOD training (or the "Command Ashore" variants) is at least expected and common if not actually mandatory.
I guess I don't know what you mean by "Deck Department." The Deck Department (or division on a smaller ship) on a US Navy vessel is the one in charge of all lines, cables, rigging, anchors, boats etc. as well as exterior upkeep. It is the division of the boatswain's mates and -- sorry, but it's true -- less-skilled seamen. BMs have impressive skills, but they are regarded as a "brawn" rather than "brains" rating. Fire controlman is very much an electronics and IT field, and at a pretty advanced level. I would really like to see the reaction of a FC being told they are part of the Deck Department!
GMs handle the mechanisms of guns, emplacements, loading systems, magazines etc. EODs are rarely assigned to ships, they serve in shore detachments that are deployed as needed. Minemen have both hands-on mechanical and technological aspects, but are pretty much found on sweepers only, or ashore. MA we already covered. None of these are really related.
I'm not sure what you mean by "a mandatory step," but if a surface line officer doesn't get a SWO pin by JG, which includes an OOD underway check-off, they are probably not going to get anywhere near a department head assignment, let alone XO.
The underway department(s) that aren't Engineering and Aviation. Also Medical on major combatants.
Well AFAIK, they're all "Seaman" at E1 to E3 rather than Fireman, Hospitalman, Constrictionman or Aviation so they're at least administratively related even if there are significant practical differences.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant.
I just wish DSC and SNW had...
Oh well, Pike does have a green uniform as well. So there's that.
Medicine and science have more in common than engineering and security, or command and piloting.
Engineering and Security don't have much in common, however generally (TOS/DSC/SNW excepted) Security is combined with Armory, Tactical and sometimes even Communications, which do have Engineering functions if you combine the bridge and below-decks roles (I mostly don't as noted previously in this thread).
Command and piloting have a lot in common -- even discarding aviation where they're literally the same thing -- as the Boatswain's Mate rating -- which is the default source rating for helmsmen -- is also the primary source rating for Coxswain aka small boat commander, though again I would probably separate them in a 5+ groups system (Engineering, Deck (aka Operations aka Security and Services), Command, Life Sciences, Space Sciences).
Command and piloting have a lot in common -- even discarding aviation where they're literally the same thing -- as the Boatswain's Mate rating -- which is the default source rating for helmsmen -- is also the primary source rating for Coxswain aka small boat commander, though again I would probably separate them in a 5+ groups system (Engineering, Deck (aka Operations aka Security and Services), Command, Life Sciences, Space Sciences).
Ah, I see. That's more a merchant marine thing, not so much a navy thing. Is supply (stores, accounts, food service, laundry, geedunks etc.) also part of "deck"?
Seaman is more of a catch-all and includes supply/logistics, admin/HR, technical, musicians etc., not just seamanship-related specialties. Administratively, enlisted personnel are grouped (or were 30-some years ago) into communities of Crypto/Intel, Submarines, Aviation, Surface Deck/Admin/Supply, Surface Engineering, Surface Combat Systems, Medical/Dental, Seabees and Special Warfare.
Quartermasters are the source for helmsmen, their insignia is literally a ship's helm.
Probably, yes.
Based on IRL practice, I'd only break them off for Starfleet if I had at least six or seven departments rather than the three of TOS and TNG-PIC, or even the five I suggested above.
Seebees are separate currently, and have been for some time. Medical/Dental is officially separate (they are designated as Hospitalmen not Seaman), but are sometimes grouped within Deck/Admin/Supply on deployments in the org table of smaller vessels (and is always the case in the Coast Guard).
Nope, despite that logically following from their insignia, Navy Quartermasters are ship's navigators (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartermaster#U.S._Navy), though there's no rule against them qualifying as a Boat Coxswain as USCG Boatswains (who are also QMs and Signalmen) are required to for promotion to BM1 and USN BMs are AFAICT strongly encouraged to do.
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