The licensed novels are all non-canon. This isn't Star Wars.
Why does this show seem determined not to acknowledge "Voyager?"
- Thread starter WarpTenLizard
- Start date
The BBS isn't necessary. That post was pure hilarious.@Gov Kodos Is that really necessary to do to another poster? If this is how discussions are going to be handled, rather than each side posting their respective viewpoints, then...
Yes. However, they're rooted in and based off of what is Canon.
Also, Matt Martin's comments abput Canon and the relevance thereof apply to all properties, not just Star Wars.
The tweet you're referring to, I believe, is about how fans choose to interface with canon. He's right. Fans are entitled to believe whatever they want regarding a work of fiction. The only reason we're even having this conversation is because Mr. Bennett is presenting himself as an authority on canon. The reality of the situation is that his interpretations are apocryphal (that's just how these licensing arrangements work with Paramount) and contradict canonical on-screen information. He's choosing to dismiss and distort what we're receiving from official on-screen media to salvage his favored vision of what the Borg should be. And once more, that's perfectly fine—so long as he isn't attempting to propagate a false narrative.
TL;DR
What we're seeing from Picard is considered canon. What we saw from Voyager is considered canon. None of these screenwriters are beholden to anything in Christopher's novels. If they wanted to cull select ideas from his work, such as in the case of Spock's first name, they can. But they didn't.
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@Lord Exor Unless I completely misread his analyses, @Christopher wasn't talking about the Borg as he wrote them; he was talking about what they are - and how theyre represented - in the Canon.
Re: Matt Martin, the specific comment I paraphrased came from a convention panel, but it does tie into comments he made on Twitter about fans not needing to be absolutely beholden to Canon if they don't want to be.
Re: Matt Martin, the specific comment I paraphrased came from a convention panel, but it does tie into comments he made on Twitter about fans not needing to be absolutely beholden to Canon if they don't want to be.
He was talking about both, and he flagrantly dismissed the parts of canon he dislikes.
I didn't read anything he said as being dismissive of Canon; he disputed the idea that two anomalous instances of Canon writing were enough evidence to override more consistent Canon writing portraying and depicting the Borg as a singular Hive Mind consistent with the way he described them in his own tie-in writings and here in this thread.
They weren't anomalous, there's way more than two, and those instances were major: a feature film and 288 minutes worth of episodes. Add on Picard and that's a significant portion of Borg appearances.
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(fan subset rationalization): " 'I don't have a son' is literal, in that 'he"' has since become 'she' " (I am NOT dissing LGBTQI, BTW; just inventing a justification for a line of dialogue neither delivered or written).
In re: LGBTQI, however, here's something interesting. Years ago, when my university employer recognized the addition of I (intersex), I got a bit curious. "Inclusivity of all is essential (again, no sarcasm intended: it is and should be), but how many I's can there be?" (FYI:
Intersex is a general term used for a variety of situations in which a person is born with reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't fit the boxes of “female” or “male.” Sometimes doctors do surgeries on intersex babies and children to make their bodies fit binary ideas of “male” or “female”.
Turns out, about as many as there are folks with red hair:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ntersex people are massively underrepresented.
...which I find personally fascinating. The general population may think I's (or "sex swappers," as I saw that called on a tabloid magazine cover) as rare and thus "weird" as albinos...but no! (no one exclaims "Hey! Look at that redhead!" in anything other than an...appreciative sense)
In re: LGBTQI, however, here's something interesting. Years ago, when my university employer recognized the addition of I (intersex), I got a bit curious. "Inclusivity of all is essential (again, no sarcasm intended: it is and should be), but how many I's can there be?" (FYI:
Intersex is a general term used for a variety of situations in which a person is born with reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't fit the boxes of “female” or “male.” Sometimes doctors do surgeries on intersex babies and children to make their bodies fit binary ideas of “male” or “female”.
Turns out, about as many as there are folks with red hair:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ntersex people are massively underrepresented.
...which I find personally fascinating. The general population may think I's (or "sex swappers," as I saw that called on a tabloid magazine cover) as rare and thus "weird" as albinos...but no! (no one exclaims "Hey! Look at that redhead!" in anything other than an...appreciative sense)
>Roddenberry himself considered a lot of the things he had to settle for in TOS as mistakes or bad idea
Roddenberry "gave" us the Ultimate Retcon Machine in Kirk's into to Rod's TMP novelization. Kirk mentions that someone in Starfleet decided for PR purposes to "dramatize" Kirk's adventures, which "episodes" made Kirk uncomfortable, in that he was often made out to be more of a hero than he really was (among other issues).
I picture generations of civilians growing up while watching and rewatching episodes "Starfleet's Star Trek: It's Not Just a Job, it's the Human Adventure!" , the content of which IS TOS. By extension, one can imagine this true of every series episode, and all films...or alternately, believe that that outrage by Starfleet personnel and the general public alike at such a self-serving set of captain-as-hero stories brought such "dramatizations" to an end (picture a fannish crowd, just pre-TMP, waving "Bring back 'Star Trek' signs").
Didn't like Spock's Brain? In reality, it made lots more sense. Loathe Last Battlefield? It flat never happened. Can't stomach ST V? The answer is obvious.
Mind you, in terms of analytic discussions, this is counter-productive; "That episode is fiction!" is tantamount to "I don't trust your news sources because they all lie!" (although of course, the dishonesty of some "news" sources has been established repeatedly and in detail in memoirs by former employees...but I digress). However...(though one risks plunging down the rabbit hole again)...one might cross-reference pre-"New Generation" (i.e, from Discovery onward) series' data against those which came before, and....argue forever about minutia and trivia, I guess...which is why we all come here to read and post, right?
Roddenberry "gave" us the Ultimate Retcon Machine in Kirk's into to Rod's TMP novelization. Kirk mentions that someone in Starfleet decided for PR purposes to "dramatize" Kirk's adventures, which "episodes" made Kirk uncomfortable, in that he was often made out to be more of a hero than he really was (among other issues).
I picture generations of civilians growing up while watching and rewatching episodes "Starfleet's Star Trek: It's Not Just a Job, it's the Human Adventure!" , the content of which IS TOS. By extension, one can imagine this true of every series episode, and all films...or alternately, believe that that outrage by Starfleet personnel and the general public alike at such a self-serving set of captain-as-hero stories brought such "dramatizations" to an end (picture a fannish crowd, just pre-TMP, waving "Bring back 'Star Trek' signs").
Didn't like Spock's Brain? In reality, it made lots more sense. Loathe Last Battlefield? It flat never happened. Can't stomach ST V? The answer is obvious.
Mind you, in terms of analytic discussions, this is counter-productive; "That episode is fiction!" is tantamount to "I don't trust your news sources because they all lie!" (although of course, the dishonesty of some "news" sources has been established repeatedly and in detail in memoirs by former employees...but I digress). However...(though one risks plunging down the rabbit hole again)...one might cross-reference pre-"New Generation" (i.e, from Discovery onward) series' data against those which came before, and....argue forever about minutia and trivia, I guess...which is why we all come here to read and post, right?
100% agree with you, and I'm sorry you have to argue with a fanfic writer over a concept which is plainly obvious in all the episodes we have seen over the years.
My impression is that "collective consciousness" is like a very tightly-knit family with a collective will (directed by the BQ) -- "individual will" is taken away, but as in a family, each member brings their own "biological and technological distinctiveness", implying there is still a hierarchy... different drones with different specialties- tactical, medical, chamber maintenance, tertiary adjuncts, etc, but they all act collectively as one big happy united Borg family. "species 10026 - you can feel their distinctiveness coursing through us, enhancing us". Collective to BQ: "Voyager has altered course, current position spatial grid 632" Janeway: "I don't know how you do it, all those voices talking at once, you must get terrible headaches".
- the Borg can hear everyone else's thoughts. whenever we "hear" the voices of the Borg collective, the sound effect is a whole bunch of whispers of many many *different* voices / thoughts. this susurration implies that drones are thinking many different things, likely due to different daily experiences each drone may have. This is obviously chaotic, but before the BQ brings order to that chaos, and of course each ship has a vinculum to purge any extraneous thoughts and prevent infighting within the collective.
- the 3 drones whose parietal lobes were connected by Seven after being marooned -- they were "individuals" but part of a micro collective. they (like the larger collective) needed "consensus" to be able to proceed with anything. Imagine trillions of drones connected like this? Still individual voices, but none have the will or ability do to anything on their own.
- lack of individual will leads to lack of innovation. this is why the Borg couldn't "think of" a way to engineer nanoprobes to defeat species 8472. however, in Unimatrix Zero, the BQ (as the leader) actually innovates and directs the strategy ("bring me his cortical array", isolating/amplifying interlink frequencies, relishing disembodiment of her wayward drones, etc)
with that said, I assume there is redundancy, and it is possibly to "become" a queen in case of need or emergency or if there is no collective set up (like Seven when she reactivated the Artifact's drones).
I think Agnes's experience with (as?) the BQ over the next few episodes will be really helpful in telling us more about how things work in the collective![/QUOTE]
>Didn't Tilly have an NX-01 snow globe is a season 4 episode?
Hole...EEE...frack! Do you know what that means? Enterprise isn't real! It's an in-joke of sorts:
St. Elsewhere's series finale... is more known for its provocative final scene: Westphall and his son Tommy Westphall (played by Chad Allen), who has autism, are seen in Dr. Auschlander's office watching snow falling outside. The image cuts to an exterior shot of the hospital, shaking. At that moment, Tommy and Daniel Auschlander are seen in an apartment building, with Tommy playing with a snow globe...As Tommy shakes the snow globe, he is told by his father to come and wash his hands for dinner. Donald places the snow globe on the family's television set and walks into the kitchen with Tommy and Auschlander; as they leave the room, the camera closes in on the snow globe—which holds a replica of St. Eligius.[11]
The most common interpretation of this scene is that the entire series of events in the series St. Elsewhere had been a product of Tommy Westphall's imagination, with elements of the above scene used as its own evidence.
See also the diagram of shows rendered fictional by their interconnections and thereby being part of the Tommy Westphall Universe (vastly embiggenable diagram):
https://i.redd.it/8guyru6c6zz41.jpg
Hole...EEE...frack! Do you know what that means? Enterprise isn't real! It's an in-joke of sorts:
St. Elsewhere's series finale... is more known for its provocative final scene: Westphall and his son Tommy Westphall (played by Chad Allen), who has autism, are seen in Dr. Auschlander's office watching snow falling outside. The image cuts to an exterior shot of the hospital, shaking. At that moment, Tommy and Daniel Auschlander are seen in an apartment building, with Tommy playing with a snow globe...As Tommy shakes the snow globe, he is told by his father to come and wash his hands for dinner. Donald places the snow globe on the family's television set and walks into the kitchen with Tommy and Auschlander; as they leave the room, the camera closes in on the snow globe—which holds a replica of St. Eligius.[11]
The most common interpretation of this scene is that the entire series of events in the series St. Elsewhere had been a product of Tommy Westphall's imagination, with elements of the above scene used as its own evidence.
See also the diagram of shows rendered fictional by their interconnections and thereby being part of the Tommy Westphall Universe (vastly embiggenable diagram):
https://i.redd.it/8guyru6c6zz41.jpg
I just turned 51.............I served in the USAF in my 20s and 30s.........Do I regularly see people from that time frame? NO. Do I speak often about that timeframe? NO. Was it some of my fondest memories? YES. Life goes on. I don't understand the need for Seven to talk about it or call Harry to see how he's doing now. If it is part of the story like Riker and Deanna last season cool. If not, even better.
If it was such then it wouldn't be argued about.
And professional authors are not fan fiction writers.
Seven may just want to put Voyager behind her.
Seven and the crew didn't always get along.
They're both writers. One's paid one isn't and both groups have nothing to do with making the show. So, professional fanfic covers the books perfectly well.
Hardly.
@Christopher doesn't need me to defend him, but I'm going to anyway. He is not a 'fanfic writer'; he's a professional author who was hired to write tie-in fiction for Star Trek and Marvel and who has published several works of original fiction as well.
Exactly.
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