Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

[Farscape One]

And I argue almost as hard for Data getting his third gold pip as for Harry getting his hollow one. If Crusher and Deanna could be commanders, Data (ahead of them in the line of succession) should have been.

Also, I periodically advocate for other unfairly passed over officers, like Mayweather (the most experienced and competent human on that ship) and Boimler (who didn't deserve to be demoted). It's kind of a hobby of mine.

Data, as far as I am concerned, was the most shafted out of everyone in terms of lack of promotion. Not just for the reasons you stated, but also because...

1. He had excellent service as a Lt. Cmdr. for 15 years.
2. When he was the XO, he performed flawlessly.
3. When he was in a command position ("Gambit, Part II", "Redemption II"), he performed flawlessly.
4. He saved Earth from being assimilated by the Borg. TWICE!

Totally, completely wrong by any measure.


Agreed about Mayweather, too. But if the writers couldn't be bothered to give him dialogue, they certainly couldn't bother themselves with a promotion.

(One thing I don't recall... were there any actual Lt. j.g. ranks used in ENTERPRISE? If not, and it went straight fron ensign to full Lt., that might account for the lack of promotions for him and Sato.)


Side note: that's another thing DS9 got right that the others didn't... promotions within a reasonable time.

 

[jackoverfull]

25+ years later. And no hair.

the hair could have been a phase!

The 24th century version of the test is probably far more sophisticated.

they don’t have one, otherwise it would have been pivotal in measure of a man.

 

[jackoverfull]

Data, as far as I am concerned, was the most shafted out of everyone in terms of lack of promotion. Not just for the reasons you stated, but also because...

1. He had excellent service as a Lt. Cmdr. for 15 years.
2. When he was the XO, he performed flawlessly.
3. When he was in a command position ("Gambit, Part II", "Redemption II"), he performed flawlessly.
4. He saved Earth from being assimilated by the Borg. TWICE!

Totally, completely wrong by any measure.

Which only goes to show that the synth ban didn’t come out of nowhere: the federation was already quite racist against artificial life forms decades before it.

Agreed about Mayweather, too. But if the writers couldn't be bothered to give him dialogue, they certainly couldn't bother themselves with a promotion.

(One thing I don't recall... were there any actual Lt. j.g. ranks used in ENTERPRISE? If not, and it went straight fron ensign to full Lt., that might account for the lack of promotions for him and Sato.)

TATV, set seven years later or so, nobody got a promotion!

 

[Farscape One]

I don't acknowledge "THESE ARE THE VOYAGES...".

 

[Oddish]

One thing I don't recall... were there any actual Lt. j.g. ranks used in ENTERPRISE? If not, and it went straight fron ensign to full Lt., that might account for the lack of promotions for him and Sato.)

There were no "hollow pip" ranks period. Even assuming that, Mayweather should have been fast tracked for Lt. by "Home" and had three pips by 2161. Of course, maybe he did. See below.

Side note: that's another thing DS9 got right that the others didn't... promotions within a reasonable time.

Yes. Of the characters I think got shafted, there was one each on TNG, VOY, ENT, and LD. DS9 got it completely right.

TATV, set seven years later or so, nobody got a promotion!

My head canon is that Riker's holosimulation was not accurate; it instead included characters from Enterprise's most famous missions. By 2161, Sato was working at Starfleet Command to perfect the UT, Malcolm was back with Section 31 developing new photonic ordnance, Phlox was back with his extended family (and his menagerie) on Denobula, and Mayweather was wearing three pips and serving as first officer on the NX-03.

I don't acknowledge "THESE ARE THE VOYAGES...".

I acknowledge that Riker's holosimulation, co-written at his request by Reg Barclay, probably took some liberties with actual history. Would a modern recreation of events from 1810 be completely accurate?

 

[Oddish]

I'm not saying Tom should have just gotten a slap on the wrist, but a month in the brig and a demotion just put out the wrong message.

Especially since solitary confinement is considered even in the 20th century to be just as inhumane as flogging.

He saved Earth from being assimilated by the Borg. TWICE!

Not to mention ended the Romulan involvement in the Klingon civil war, which could have led to the destruction of the Federation.

He had excellent service as a Lt. Cmdr. for 15 years.

And as an officer for 37, by my count (26 as of "Redemption"). He FINALLY is in line for the first officer job... and they @$#*!-ing killed him off.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Or they don't have a version. The Turing test is basically a test to see if a A.I. can be deceptive, and convince someone that the A.I. is something it isn't.

Artificial intelligence is just that, artificial.

A positronic brain isn't more efficient than a duitronic brain. Just the opposite. True logic is impossible with a positronic brain because of uncertainty. Positrons are awkward and difficult, so sometimes they are going pick “a“ over “b“ and some times they'll pick "b" over "a" and there's no reason to know which, when or why.

True randomness, therefore life.

A hologram however is not designed to be random or alive. They are identical and logically the same, even as they use algorithms to fake randomness. If you asked a hundred emhs the same question, all one hundred of them would reply in the same way, if their randomizer algorithms are in synch, which would require 100 hundred factory resets.

 

[Farscape One]

"When the ones and zeroes do not speak, it means there is trouble between them."
General Martok, as an IT person

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes.

Maybe. We don’t really know that. Seems likely though.
she wasn’t.

early in season 1? Sure. Afterwards? Not really.

I’m saying that by then he was a person, with all the needs and quirks of personhood. This was one of the main points of his characters.

If Crusher was incapacitated for a few months another doctor would fill in, but her job would still be waiting for her once she had recovered. It might be different if she was declared dead, but even in Before and After they said they were not sure they could recover the doctor, not that he was not recoverable.

I'm on a break from watching Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness, where I was reminded that when Doctor Strange "Blipped", the mantle of Sorceror Supreme passed on to his butler Wong.

So an arrogant S.O.B. with a hefty god complex loses his title of authority after a short hiatus of 5 years, yet the serene contemplative Buddhist Monk does not step down to let the round eyes steal his job.

Sound familiar?

 

[jackoverfull]

Not really. But I don’t watch much tv anyway.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Not really. But I don’t watch much tv anyway.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

 

[jackoverfull]

Still totally irrelevant and totally off-topic.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Still totally irrelevant and totally off-topic.

I'm talking about the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Doctor Strange, the Sorcerer Supreme is killed by Thanos.
For 5 years Wong, his assistant, is Sorcerer Supreme.
Doctor Strange is Resurrected by the Hulk using the Infinity Gauntlet.
Wong stays the Sorcerer Supreme, despite his predecessor's return.
Doctor Strange is no longer the Sorcerer Supreme.

We were talking about he Before and After Timeline.

The Doctor and CMO goes offline during the Hear of Hell.
Kes becomes the CMO as a Nurse, and then gets her medical degree.
Nine months later the Doctor is resurrected.
Kes stays the CMO, despite her predecessor's return.
The Doctor is no longer the CMO.

It's the same.

At least, my interpretation of what happened in Before and After, that you strenuously disagree with, is exactly the same as what happens to a Marvel Comics Character in their Marvel Movie, that I am watching right now.

 

[jackoverfull]

I don’t think I’ve seen anything from marvel in some twenty years.

 

[Oddish]

Marvel just got to crazy and confusing with its sheer number of characters, and they're all in the same universe, so to understand I would have to watch dozens of hours of movies. I tend to like my superhero movies with one superhero.

Regarding the episode under discussion, I'd like to repeat one of my very few quotable statements...

Well, you know... the character of Kes underwent an amazing development arc. Other characters went on the journey with her, their lives fundamentally changed and deeply enriched by her presence: Tom found peace, Harry found love, the Doctor evolved in new and surprising ways. Even characters like Chakotay, Tuvok, and Neelix found new roles and took on new responsibilities. There was love, loss, pain, sorrow, joy, life itself in all its terrible beauty... and then, "Before and After" ended.

And there we go. We got a timeline that made threats relevant because leading characters died. It had the surviving characters evolve in new unexpected ways. Even the neglected characters became important. Except for the lack of Seven's presence, it was just better than the stunted and static timeline we got. But it got deleted.

"Endgame" would repeat this issue later, giving us a fascinating look at what happened to each of the characters, post-journey. Then, it erased it and replaced it with a whole lotta nothing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Harry is a full Lieutenant in the Before and After Time Line.

There are no Bridge Scenes in the distant Future, so we don't know if he's still the operations officer, but with Janeway, B'Elanna and Joe Carey dead. I forgot Joe was supposed to die in the Year of Hell.

Engineering is right there, ripe and ready for the taking.

Is Harry the Chief Engineer?

Tuvok doesn't sleep much so he's fine with tactical, security and first officer.

Living space.

Rank dictates square footage.

Linnis doesn't have rank, but if her mother is out of action, then she's cmo, which should give her the equivalence in living space allocation as a lieutenant commander, maybe.

Kim may have just finally gone after a promotion to get a big enough quarters to berth his baby, and enough room for the little shit to grow up comfortably.

 

[Farscape One]

There is no dialogue in "BEFORE AND AFTER" that says Kes or Linnis are CMO.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There is no dialogue in "BEFORE AND AFTER" that says Kes or Linnis are CMO.

Holograms are subordinate to humanoids.

Holograms are slaves.

Holograms do what they are told, or they are deleted.

If Captain Chakotay wants to make the EMH the CMO over an Ocampa, because a Hologram will always be a better Doctor than a humanoid, then he better prepare to retire because it's likely that the ECH is a superior commanding officer than he is too.

 

[jackoverfull]

And here we go again. Give it up.

 

[Oddish]

Harry is a full Lieutenant in the Before and After Time Line.

There are no Bridge Scenes in the distant Future, so we don't know if he's still the operations officer, but with Janeway, B'Elanna and Joe Carey dead. I forgot Joe was supposed to die in the Year of Hell.

Engineering is right there, ripe and ready for the taking.

Certainly, Harry seems highly capable. He was heavily involved in the design and construction of the Delta Flyer, and the creation of Seven's astrometrics lab (yet another reason why he deserved that hollow pip). Whether these mad skillz translate to running an engine room is unknown.

Tuvok doesn't sleep much so he's fine with tactical, security and first officer.

Tuvok probably promoted Ayala (Voyager's answer to Morn) to security chief. Since Ayala doesn't share his difficult relationship with Neelix, he was willing to take Neelix on as a security officer.

Linnis doesn't have rank, but if her mother is out of action, then she's cmo, which should give her the equivalence in living space allocation as a lieutenant commander, maybe.

Kim may have just finally gone after a promotion to get a big enough quarters to berth his baby

One, Voyager seems to have more living space than other ships, given that even ensigns have their own quarters.

Two, families undoubtedly get sizable quarters. Ensign Wildman (who also should have made lieutenant at some point) had enough living space for Naomi to have her own room.

Holograms are subordinate to humanoids.

Holograms are slaves.

Holograms do what they are told, or they are deleted.

A conventional hologram (like the sad version of Minuet Riker got after the Bynars departed), probably true. I get the sense that thing was only capable of dancing, basic conversation, and maybe a little horizontal mambo. But for a hologram that has to have huge memory allotments because of its role (medicine), it might wind up exceeding the intent of its programmers.

If you want holograms to be slaves, simply write certain limits into their programs, so that they can't develop the abilities that Voyager's EMH did.