Or it could be interpreted as "Harry, another method of trying to get a promotion?"
Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?
- Thread starter B. L.
- Start date
If a person wants to generate a justification for Harry being an ensign for 7 years, or a long time afterward for that matter, they can undoubtedly do so. Everyone's head canon is different, and there are no canonical events for Harry after "Endgame".
Realistically, events of several wiped futures suggest that he wasn't promoted simply because Janeway was extremely stingy with promotions. And, the evidence suggests that Starfleet recognized this idiosyncrasy of hers, and did not penalize any of Voyager's crew because of it. They simply handed out a crapload of rank pips to Voyager's long suffering cadre of ensigns when Voyager reached home. If Harry had to call Nog "sir" when he arrived, he probably didn't have had to for long.
Realistically, events of several wiped futures suggest that he wasn't promoted simply because Janeway was extremely stingy with promotions. And, the evidence suggests that Starfleet recognized this idiosyncrasy of hers, and did not penalize any of Voyager's crew because of it. They simply handed out a crapload of rank pips to Voyager's long suffering cadre of ensigns when Voyager reached home. If Harry had to call Nog "sir" when he arrived, he probably didn't have had to for long.
I agree in principle, however, though you can quickly compensate someone for 'rank lag', promoting him/her to the rank (s)he should have had by then, you can't as easily make up for the 'career lag'.
I mean, suppose someone's first assignment would have been the maintenance of just a few sensor panels deep down on deck 2, and this person would in any normal circumstances have moved on to a few successively more responsible posts and by now have been an assistant department head with a few people reporting to him/her. However on Voyager there never was any opportunity to move up because the people doing those other more senior jobs also had nowhere to go /move up to. So, after his/her return to the AQ, what kind of posting do you give our newly promoted Lieutenant (Commander)? You can't give him/her that assistant department head position, since (s)he never grew into that. Though (s)he would by now be very proficient in maintaining those sensor panels, (s)he would still have an experience lag of a few years in more senior tasks which (s)he couldn't easily make up for, and probably would still have to play catch-up during his/her next few postings.
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Firstly, that's a viable explanation for, say, Harry being promoted to lieutenant JG upon Voyager's return instead of full lieutenant, which I think is what his seven years of service rated (given his reprimand in S5, I don't think he would be any higher). It doesn't explain having him be an ensign for his entire career, like many Trekkies like to gleefully declare to be what happened to him.
Secondly, as a department head (as opposed to the ensigns from TNG's "Lower Decks"), Harry was doing lieutenant-level work for seven years. A field promotion to LTJG would have made perfect sense for his character, far more than what actually happened.
Operations but his memory alpha page lists him as operations officer
ETA: which might be the same thing as a head I'm not sure
ETA: which might be the same thing as a head I'm not sure
Presumably Voyager didn't rate a chief of operations, which is what Data was to Enterprise. Given that Data was third in command, it seems surprising that Voyager's equivalent would be a wet behind the ears newbie. Given that Harry was at Janeway's "grown-up" table alongside lieutenants, again, it seems like he should have been a JG.
But, that begs the question. If Ensign Kim was doing lieutenant-level work, then why didn't Starfleet force Janeway to appoint a lieutenant to Kim's position? Or have Kim be a lieutenant right off the bat? He was doing the exact same work for seven years that he was doing the day they departed Deep Space Nine for the Badlands (aside from some third shift clarinet practice in the center chair). For me, the fact that Starfleet approved a lowly green ensign to be Operations officer just proves Ensign Kim COULDN'T have been promoted because Voyager was such a small ship, with minimal room for advancement. Maybe if Kim had cross-trained in other fields (Tactical/Security with Tuvok, medic with The Doctor, helm with Mr. Paris), maybe THEN Kim could have been eligible for that lieutenant pip. Just pressing buttons and informing Janeway the percentage of shield frequency and hull integrity didn't cut it as far as promotions go
Again, Trek canon does not support that. No fewer than eight different Starfleet officers, across all three Nextgen series, received promotions in rank WITHOUT reassignment of position or duties. Including Tuvok and Paris on Voyager.
Furthermore, Janeway often mentions SENIOR officers. Ensigns are not senior officers, and brand new ensigns certainly aren't. Why he wound up as the highest ranked ops officer on Voyager is anyone's guess. Bureaucratic error, maybe. Regardless, Harry is punching well above his weight. And in a realistic universe, Starfleet understood this. When Voyager returned home, they did what Janeway refused to: gave him a nice boost in rank. If your head canon is that Harry was an ensign for 50 years, knock yourself out, but I will go with what makes the most sense.
I really need to find "No Little Box, No Good Reason" and figure out how to link it. It addresses all these arguments.
Furthermore, Janeway often mentions SENIOR officers. Ensigns are not senior officers, and brand new ensigns certainly aren't. Why he wound up as the highest ranked ops officer on Voyager is anyone's guess. Bureaucratic error, maybe. Regardless, Harry is punching well above his weight. And in a realistic universe, Starfleet understood this. When Voyager returned home, they did what Janeway refused to: gave him a nice boost in rank. If your head canon is that Harry was an ensign for 50 years, knock yourself out, but I will go with what makes the most sense.
I really need to find "No Little Box, No Good Reason" and figure out how to link it. It addresses all these arguments.
Except that Voyager shows it to be highly likely that Harry was considered a senior officer from the beginning. There's the scene I already mentioned where Harry is in a briefing that's only for senior officers according to Janeway. There's the scene in the cloud where after Harry says he's never seen a nebula like that, Tuvok reprimands him with " Tuvok to Kim. Mister Kim, that is a comment we'd prefer not to hear from a senior officer on the Bridge. It makes the junior officers nervous." Both scenes are early S1 in Voyager's run, Of course you still might explain it by saying he was on a fast track to be groomed as a senior officer, but I think the explanation he was already considered one is far more likely.
And yes, while a promotion doesn't require a change of position in itself, you'd still expect there to be a certain bandwidth of positions that are normal for a rank (or the other way around, you'd expect a certain bandwidth of ranks fitting for a certain position). For example, routine sensor panel maintenance might be fitting work for Ensigns and Lt. Jr grades, and perhaps even for a full Lieutenant, but become progressively less likely jobs for each rank beyond that ; you certainly wouldn't expect a Captain-ranked or an Admiral-ranked person to do that kind of stuff.
So it's quite possible that Janeway /Picard / whoever could promote those officers one time without changing their position because it still fell within that 'bandwidth', but not a second time. Perhaps a promotion without a change of positions can mean as much as : "We think you're ready for a position with more responsibility, but right now such a position isn't available/we need you more where you are now. However see this as our intention to eventually give you that position."
And yes, while a promotion doesn't require a change of position in itself, you'd still expect there to be a certain bandwidth of positions that are normal for a rank (or the other way around, you'd expect a certain bandwidth of ranks fitting for a certain position). For example, routine sensor panel maintenance might be fitting work for Ensigns and Lt. Jr grades, and perhaps even for a full Lieutenant, but become progressively less likely jobs for each rank beyond that ; you certainly wouldn't expect a Captain-ranked or an Admiral-ranked person to do that kind of stuff.
So it's quite possible that Janeway /Picard / whoever could promote those officers one time without changing their position because it still fell within that 'bandwidth', but not a second time. Perhaps a promotion without a change of positions can mean as much as : "We think you're ready for a position with more responsibility, but right now such a position isn't available/we need you more where you are now. However see this as our intention to eventually give you that position."
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I'm saying that a change in rank requires a change in position.
Each position has a set number of underlings, all of whom have less rank than the rank of the department head.
Which means that in a low rank zone like operations, lieutenants, and even other ensigns are never around, so you get to see if the enlisted folk are fuck ups, and if the Ensign in charge of the 12 petty officers attached to Ops is any good at running staff.
If you make the head of Ops a lieutenant, then that stud is going to start drawing ensigns from other departments who need those ensigns, and the heads of those departments are going to be pissed.
It's a closed system.
Each position has a set number of underlings, all of whom have less rank than the rank of the department head.
Which means that in a low rank zone like operations, lieutenants, and even other ensigns are never around, so you get to see if the enlisted folk are fuck ups, and if the Ensign in charge of the 12 petty officers attached to Ops is any good at running staff.
If you make the head of Ops a lieutenant, then that stud is going to start drawing ensigns from other departments who need those ensigns, and the heads of those departments are going to be pissed.
It's a closed system.
I've been noticing that the chain of command structure after XO for various Starfleet ships seems to be up to the captain.
For Kirk, it seems Scotty was the ranking command officer. There are times it was Sulu, but I'm thinking each time for it was because the situation at the moment warranted whoever had the better skill set. (In "ERRAND OF MERCY" and "ARENA", Sulu was in command. Given that he handles weapons and is a bridge officer, and a combat situation was a strong possibility, and Scotty would be needed more in Engineering. On regular runs, like in "FRIDAY'S CHILD", "THE EMPATH", and "ALL OUR YESTERDAYS", it was Scotty, since combat was unlikely scenario in each case.)
For Picard, it was clearly Data.
For Sisko on the Defiant, it gets a little muddy. Before Worf, it was Kira as XO, but I'm not sure it was ever established who was next. After Worf, Worf was acting XO most of the time, but there was still no clear next in line. Unless my memory is faulty.
Janeway clearly had Tuvok as the next in line after Chakotay, likely due to him being the most experienced officer on board.
Archer had Trip as next after T'Pol, though it seemed like Trip was going to be XO as well as Chief Engineer before the early start of their mission.
This leads me to believe that each ship's captain has some leeway in who gets to be 2nd officer, and not a set department head across the board.
For Kirk, it seems Scotty was the ranking command officer. There are times it was Sulu, but I'm thinking each time for it was because the situation at the moment warranted whoever had the better skill set. (In "ERRAND OF MERCY" and "ARENA", Sulu was in command. Given that he handles weapons and is a bridge officer, and a combat situation was a strong possibility, and Scotty would be needed more in Engineering. On regular runs, like in "FRIDAY'S CHILD", "THE EMPATH", and "ALL OUR YESTERDAYS", it was Scotty, since combat was unlikely scenario in each case.)
For Picard, it was clearly Data.
For Sisko on the Defiant, it gets a little muddy. Before Worf, it was Kira as XO, but I'm not sure it was ever established who was next. After Worf, Worf was acting XO most of the time, but there was still no clear next in line. Unless my memory is faulty.
Janeway clearly had Tuvok as the next in line after Chakotay, likely due to him being the most experienced officer on board.
Archer had Trip as next after T'Pol, though it seemed like Trip was going to be XO as well as Chief Engineer before the early start of their mission.
This leads me to believe that each ship's captain has some leeway in who gets to be 2nd officer, and not a set department head across the board.
The command Structure on the Defiant was non existent.
Crew was sent aboard as needed.
Command on Voyager required a Starfleet and a Maquis in the top 2 spots.
If Chakotay died, Tuvok would have to bow out, and let B'Elanna be the XO. If Janeway died, they it's Tuvok's time to shine, either as Captain or XO depending on how real those provisional rank badges really are.
Crew was sent aboard as needed.
Command on Voyager required a Starfleet and a Maquis in the top 2 spots.
If Chakotay died, Tuvok would have to bow out, and let B'Elanna be the XO. If Janeway died, they it's Tuvok's time to shine, either as Captain or XO depending on how real those provisional rank badges really are.
Defiant is ridiculous. Ezri is on the bridge manning a station. As newb counselor. IRL, get the regular cast in the same scene.
TOS, Sulu was a more co-equal to Scotty IRL in S1, Scotty became a junior member of the Big 3 a bit later in the show. (Regulars were really Big 3 + Scotty + 3).
"Ensign" really has the ring of "fresh out of the academy." Wikipedia says O-1 is eleigible for promotion after 24 months. It's crazy in universe a bridge command officer with his escapades would not be given O-2 after a few years just to signify he was "senior" (though it is clearly wrong for writers to include him as that). Unless every other starfleet on board was also fresh outta San Fran.
IRL: the writers/producers wanted to keep having a "naif" character, and calling him ensign reinforced that to the audience. Or at least, that's my assumption.
TOS, Sulu was a more co-equal to Scotty IRL in S1, Scotty became a junior member of the Big 3 a bit later in the show. (Regulars were really Big 3 + Scotty + 3).
"Ensign" really has the ring of "fresh out of the academy." Wikipedia says O-1 is eleigible for promotion after 24 months. It's crazy in universe a bridge command officer with his escapades would not be given O-2 after a few years just to signify he was "senior" (though it is clearly wrong for writers to include him as that). Unless every other starfleet on board was also fresh outta San Fran.
IRL: the writers/producers wanted to keep having a "naif" character, and calling him ensign reinforced that to the audience. Or at least, that's my assumption.
In the sense of someone being officially declared as Second Officer, that's true until Worf's appointment, however Dax was consistently depicted as the next most senior officer after Kira (and Worf), including being placed in command of the Defiant for part of the Dominion War and commanding the station in the absence of Sisko, Kira and Worf in Tears of the Prophets.
IMO, it's likely he was the Acting XO, but given time another officer -- possibly fellow test pilot A.G. Robinson or Erika Hernandez -- would have been appointed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Kim was the editor of the academy news paper for a year.
(Generously) that means that he ordered around a hundred students in his spare time, if they wanted to get 40 pages of material printed per week?
Hardly green.
(Generously) that means that he ordered around a hundred students in his spare time, if they wanted to get 40 pages of material printed per week?
Hardly green.
I think Janeway was the one who selected him as Ops Officer. She clearly saw something in him from his Academy files that made her see his potential.
Alternatively, in "NON SEQUITUR", it was fellow Academy friend Danny Bird that got the job. It makes me wonder what set the two apart.
Alternatively, in "NON SEQUITUR", it was fellow Academy friend Danny Bird that got the job. It makes me wonder what set the two apart.
If it was true that Carey was a full Lieutenant and Torres only Lt. Jr. grade after she got appointed Chief Engineer (as Memory Alpha says), he even outranked her even though he had to report to her.
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In the actual military, you're probably right. When Geordi LaForge was promoted to chief engineer, he would have received a set rank (probably at least LCDR); he would not have been made Lieutenant, then upped to LCDR a year later. Tom Paris's reduction to ensign would have come with a change in duties as well, and Tuvok's promotion to LCDR couldn't have happened because he was not changing jobs. However, Starfleet is a bit more flexible, and prior canon (TOS, TNG, DS9) has established that characters can and do change ranks without changing jobs. Harry's predicament might be the most realistic militarily, but it's the exception to an established rule.
