Why do you think Beltran was/has been so critical?

[indolover]

It shouldn't have been that difficult. After all... you know that Trek show that started a few years before VOY and was still on the air at the time? That one proved that an ex-terrorist, non-Starfleet, opinionated, deeply spiritual XO on a Trek show can be a strong, complex, well developed character who carries many strong storylines and grows enormously during the course of the show.

[

Well, said Ex-Terrorist was not a Starfleet enemy (no matter how low-key said conflict was), and most of the conflict between Sisko and Kira faded after the first season.

Chakotay however, was not really opposed to Starfleet in the first place. If he was he would've just defected to the Maquis and betrayed secrets, been a real traitor like Eddington. However he formally resigned, THEN joined, and didn't betray anyone on the process.

Frankly, his basic character needed a bit more work if he was to really be the big source of conflict you wanted him to be. If B'Ellana was the Maquis leader, then maybe it would've worked out more.

Kira/Sisko and Chakotay/Janeway were the most realistic working relationships.

Even if one's boss is good, or one has enjoys their work, there is always conflict in some form. Neither Kira or Chakotay were yes people.

 

[indolover]

Yep, another example of Jeri Taylor not being good for VOY.

People are so quick to blame Berman and Braga (even though Braga was only a Producer for 2-3 seasons!) but no one blames Taylor.

Aren't the producers, as the label implies, responsible for all production elements? If a company fails, doesn't the buck stop with the CEO?

 

[Anwar]

On a network show, no they aren't. Especially when said network is as oppressive as UPN was. Being a Producer on VOY and ENT was more a nominal position than anything else. A trumped-up writer who didn't have real producing power.

 

[zar]

I would of loved to see his reaction when he learn't he would get it on with Seven. I would of asked B&B if they had smoked crack just before writing it.

Actually, the Seven thing was Beltran's own idea.[citation needed]

 

[propita]

How many staff meetings did Picard have when he'd hear info and suggestions, then decide? Tons, maybe too many. Chakotay was a tactician--at the meetings, or privately afterward, Chak should've listed the options and suggested which. Then Janeway could pick whichever she chose, even if it wasn't his.

And, as has been stated, other characters needn't've been weakened for Janeway to be strong. Hell, Janeway was being weakened for Seven to be "strong"--to a truly ridiculous amount. Paramount f-ed up big time. They should just realize that they don't know shit about entertainment.

 

[kimc]

However from my understanding, Chakotay was a weak character due to Jeri Taylor.
Her idea of making Janeway appear a stronger was to make Chakotay seem weaker in comparison to her.
It's why besides "Equinox", everything Chakotay brought to Janeways table was always rejected or dismissed. It made it seem like he was never right & a bad leader.

Is that from an interview? I don't recall seeing that.

Hell, Janeway was being weakened for Seven to be "strong"--to a truly ridiculous amount. Paramount f-ed up big time. They should just realize that they don't know shit about entertainment.

It seemed to me that in "Prey" Janeway had to appear wrong (even if she was right) to make Seven appear right (even though she was wrong). That's just one instance of what I believe you're talking about...

 

[AuntKate]

However from my understanding, Chakotay was a weak character due to Jeri Taylor.
Her idea of making Janeway appear a stronger was to make Chakotay seem weaker in comparison to her.
It's why besides "Equinox", everything Chakotay brought to Janeways table was always rejected or dismissed. It made it seem like he was never right & a bad leader.

Is that from an interview? I don't recall seeing that.

I have my doubts about this allegation, too, mainly because Jeri Taylor left the series after season 4 and "Equinox" was the "cliff hanger" of season 5.

Janeway "always" rejected or dismissed Chakotay's suggestons? What about the time he suggested establishing a working association with certain sects of the Kazon in "Alliances"?

CHAKOTAY: All I'm saying is Captain is that maybe there's a little room for flexibility in interpreting Starfleet's protocols. Frankly I'm not sure they were ever intended for situations like this.
JANEWAY: I haven't seen any evidence that they've let us down.
CHAKOTAY: Maybe this situation with the Kazon is the first example. Maybe we have to examine Starfleet's principles with a cold eye and ask ourselves if they're really applicable here.
JANEWAY: Computer, hold turbolift. Commander, if you have a specific suggestion please feel free to make it.
CHAKOTAY: Make a deal, an alliance.
JANEWAY: With the Kazon?
CHAKOTAY: With one of their factions, or two. If we had the Ogla and the Relora as our allies the others would be afraid to touch us.
JANEWAY: Nothing we've been through with the Kazon would lead me to believe they're trustworthy. I can't imagine making a deal with them.
CHAKOTAY: With all due respect, maybe that's because your imagination is limited by Starfleet protocols. As Captain, you're responsible for making decisions in the best interest of your crew, and I think you have to ask yourself if you're doing that.

After a discussion with Tuvok, Janeway accepts his suggestion and gives it a try. It ended in disaster, but that is beside the point for this discussion.

Need another example of a strong Chakotay whose suggestion is accepted by the captain? How about this dialogue from "The Omega Directive"?

JANEWAY: Good. The Omega directive doesn't allow me to say much but I want you to know what to expect. At oh six hundred hours, I'll be leaving in a shuttle with Seven of Nine.
CHAKOTAY: Would it be out of line to ask where you're going?
JANEWAY: I can tell you this. One of two things is going to happen. Either Seven and I will succeed on our mission, and return within a few days, or your long-range sensors will detect a large explosion in subspace. If that occurs, you'll have less than ten seconds to jump to warp, and get the hell out of here. Head for the Alpha Quadrant and don't look back, understood?
CHAKOTAY: I always thought Starfleet was run by duty-crazed bureaucrats but I find it hard to believe that even they would order a Captain to go on a suicide mission. This shuttle excursion is your idea, isn't it?
JANEWAY: Let's just say I've had to amend the directive, given the circumstances, But you have your orders. I expect you to follow them.
CHAKOTAY: That's expecting a lot. You're asking me to abandon my Captain and closest friend, without even telling me why.
JANEWAY: If it were a simple matter of trust I wouldn't hesitate to tell you, but we've encountered situations where information was taken from us by force. I can't allow knowledge of Omega to go beyond Voyager.
CHAKOTAY: That's a reasonable argument, but you're not always a reasonable woman. You're determined to protect this crew and this time you've taken it too far. A dangerous mission? Fine, I'll acknowledge that, but isn't it more likely to succeed with everyone behind you, working together?
JANEWAY: Ordinarily, I'd agree. But this directive was issued many years ago, and Starfleet didn't exactly have our predicament in mind. Lost in the Delta Quadrant, with no backup. I can't ignore the orders but I won't ask the crew to risk their lives because of my obligation.
CHAKOTAY: My obligation. That's where you're wrong. Voyager may be alone out here, but you're not. Let us help you. We'll keep classified information limited to the senior staff, we'll take every security precaution. Just don't try to do this alone.
JANEWAY: Assemble the troops.

Chakotay seems pretty strong here, don't you think? And Janeway listens to and follows his advice. The problem with saying something "always" happens is that it just takes a single example to disprove it. I'd say two examples pretty much blows it out of the water.

 

[teya]

After a discussion with Tuvok, Janeway accepts his suggestion and gives it a try. It ended in disaster, but that is beside the point for this discussion.

Actually, no, it isn't beside the point.


Janeway uses the disaster to pointedly note that Chakotay and Tuvok were wrong.

 

[DonIago]

...and never actually tried again AFAICR.

 

[indolover]

Who wouldn't want an XO who didn't act as Chakotay did?

Janeway was an intelligent woman, but she was not a Goddess. She had no boundless wisdom. Chakotay was able to stand up to her, or at least point out flaws in her plans, which Janeway was willing to acceed to. I stand by the statement that Janeway/Chakotay was the most realistic working relationship.

Riker probably deferred to Picard too much since Picard could reason out of situations on his own, given his own wisdom. Kira naturally saw Sisko as a divine figure. If the link/intemediary to your Gods was your CO, would you challenge him? lol.

 

[AuntKate]

It was a mistake to trust the Kazon and the Traab. Janeway correctly pointed out that their limited understanding of the the history between the Traab and the Kazon meant that they were not able to decide which people to trust. They were very nearly wiped out because of that fact, so, of course, they would have to be more careful. What else should a commander do? They soon learned that they had to be very, very careful with their alliances because of these unexpected complications. It was a necessary lesson to learn imho. Does that mean that she never listened to them again? Nope.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

It was a mistake to trust the Kazon and the Traab.

It's 'Trabe' not 'Trabb'. Just a little FYI.

 

[teya]

Janeway was an intelligent woman, but she was not a Goddess. She had no boundless wisdom. Chakotay was able to stand up to her, or at least point out flaws in her plans, which Janeway was willing to acceed to. I stand by the statement that Janeway/Chakotay was the most realistic working relationship.

Actually, that "Angry Warrior Speech" sounds very much like he's talking about a goddess.

 

[AuntKate]

It was a mistake to trust the Kazon and the Traab.

It's 'Trabe' not 'Trabb'. Just a little FYI.

I misspelled it as Traab not Trabb.

 

[kimc]

Janeway was an intelligent woman, but she was not a Goddess. She had no boundless wisdom. Chakotay was able to stand up to her, or at least point out flaws in her plans, which Janeway was willing to acceed to. I stand by the statement that Janeway/Chakotay was the most realistic working relationship.

Actually, that "Angry Warrior Speech" sounds very much like he's talking about a goddess.

I don't remember the word "goddess" anywhere in there. He did call her brave and wise. Actually, there are plenty of women who are brave and wise - being a goddess is not a prerequisite.

 

[exodus]

However from my understanding, Chakotay was a weak character due to Jeri Taylor.
Her idea of making Janeway appear a stronger was to make Chakotay seem weaker in comparison to her.
It's why besides "Equinox", everything Chakotay brought to Janeways table was always rejected or dismissed. It made it seem like he was never right & a bad leader.

Is that from an interview? I don't recall seeing that.

I have no idea, it's just been mentioned here and several other Trek boards over the years but I have no idea of the source or of how factual it really is. It's never been questioned before, so I assumed it's been something others here knew of.

 

[exodus]

However from my understanding, Chakotay was a weak character due to Jeri Taylor.
Her idea of making Janeway appear a stronger was to make Chakotay seem weaker in comparison to her.
It's why besides "Equinox", everything Chakotay brought to Janeways table was always rejected or dismissed. It made it seem like he was never right & a bad leader.

Is that from an interview? I don't recall seeing that.

I have my doubts about this allegation, too, mainly because Jeri Taylor left the series after season 4 and "Equinox" was the "cliff hanger" of season 5.

Janeway "always" rejected or dismissed Chakotay's suggestons? What about the time he suggested establishing a working association with certain sects of the Kazon in "Alliances"?

CHAKOTAY: All I'm saying is Captain is that maybe there's a little room for flexibility in interpreting Starfleet's protocols. Frankly I'm not sure they were ever intended for situations like this.
JANEWAY: I haven't seen any evidence that they've let us down.
CHAKOTAY: Maybe this situation with the Kazon is the first example. Maybe we have to examine Starfleet's principles with a cold eye and ask ourselves if they're really applicable here.
JANEWAY: Computer, hold turbolift. Commander, if you have a specific suggestion please feel free to make it.
CHAKOTAY: Make a deal, an alliance.
JANEWAY: With the Kazon?
CHAKOTAY: With one of their factions, or two. If we had the Ogla and the Relora as our allies the others would be afraid to touch us.
JANEWAY: Nothing we've been through with the Kazon would lead me to believe they're trustworthy. I can't imagine making a deal with them.
CHAKOTAY: With all due respect, maybe that's because your imagination is limited by Starfleet protocols. As Captain, you're responsible for making decisions in the best interest of your crew, and I think you have to ask yourself if you're doing that.

After a discussion with Tuvok, Janeway accepts his suggestion and gives it a try. It ended in disaster, but that is beside the point for this discussion.

Need another example of a strong Chakotay whose suggestion is accepted by the captain? How about this dialogue from "The Omega Directive"?

JANEWAY: Good. The Omega directive doesn't allow me to say much but I want you to know what to expect. At oh six hundred hours, I'll be leaving in a shuttle with Seven of Nine.
CHAKOTAY: Would it be out of line to ask where you're going?
JANEWAY: I can tell you this. One of two things is going to happen. Either Seven and I will succeed on our mission, and return within a few days, or your long-range sensors will detect a large explosion in subspace. If that occurs, you'll have less than ten seconds to jump to warp, and get the hell out of here. Head for the Alpha Quadrant and don't look back, understood?
CHAKOTAY: I always thought Starfleet was run by duty-crazed bureaucrats but I find it hard to believe that even they would order a Captain to go on a suicide mission. This shuttle excursion is your idea, isn't it?
JANEWAY: Let's just say I've had to amend the directive, given the circumstances, But you have your orders. I expect you to follow them.
CHAKOTAY: That's expecting a lot. You're asking me to abandon my Captain and closest friend, without even telling me why.
JANEWAY: If it were a simple matter of trust I wouldn't hesitate to tell you, but we've encountered situations where information was taken from us by force. I can't allow knowledge of Omega to go beyond Voyager.
CHAKOTAY: That's a reasonable argument, but you're not always a reasonable woman. You're determined to protect this crew and this time you've taken it too far. A dangerous mission? Fine, I'll acknowledge that, but isn't it more likely to succeed with everyone behind you, working together?
JANEWAY: Ordinarily, I'd agree. But this directive was issued many years ago, and Starfleet didn't exactly have our predicament in mind. Lost in the Delta Quadrant, with no backup. I can't ignore the orders but I won't ask the crew to risk their lives because of my obligation.
CHAKOTAY: My obligation. That's where you're wrong. Voyager may be alone out here, but you're not. Let us help you. We'll keep classified information limited to the senior staff, we'll take every security precaution. Just don't try to do this alone.
JANEWAY: Assemble the troops.

Chakotay seems pretty strong here, don't you think? And Janeway listens to and follows his advice. The problem with saying something "always" happens is that it just takes a single example to disprove it. I'd say two examples pretty much blows it out of the water.

Forgive me, I sometimes forget how literal we can be around here.
I guess I don't recall his advice every being taken seeing how it happen from the Kazon allience and not again until Omega Directive. That's allot of time and decisions being made inbetween.

 

[AuntKate]

^^ As you say, we don't see all of their discussions or meetings. Who knows how many times Tuvok or Chakotay (or any of the others) might challenge her position or even suggest the course of action she chooses to follow? When Janeway picks B'Elanna as her engineering chief, B'Elanna worries about her tendency to question her academy teachers, and Janeway replies: "Some professors like students who challenge their assumptions, B'Elanna. And so do some captains" (obviously referring to herself). We see a tiny bit of the time they spent in those seven years, and see only a few interactions. The only time these discussions would appear on screen is if they are necessary for the telling of the story or the building of the drama, right?

The reason I like to go back to the "literal" show is because many people repeat what they hear on other boards as gospel without verifying it. Coming to a Voyager forum and reciting something heard elsewhere isn't always going to met with open arms. Some critics watch one or two episodes and draw conclusions on characters and attitudes from that small of a sample. It is a mistake to judge any character on one or two episodes. Janeway's decisions aren't always as controversial as the one she makese in "Tuvix" nor is she as rigid as she was in "Equinox." Seven of Nine is much more than a Barbie doll with Borg implants. And so on and so forth.

I think it is only right to go back to the programs and see whether the critics on these boards are basing their opinions on fact or fancy. Better to see and judge with the real thing than to accept an interpretation, or an assumption, or a stereotype from someone else imho.

 

[exodus]

^^ As you say, we don't see all of their discussions or meetings. Who knows how many times Tuvok or Chakotay (or any of the others) might challenge her position or even suggest the course of action she chooses to follow? When Janeway picks B'Elanna as her engineering chief, B'Elanna worries about her tendency to question her academy teachers, and Janeway replies: "Some professors like students who challenge their assumptions, B'Elanna. And so do some captains" (obviously referring to herself). We see a tiny bit of the time they spent in those seven years, and see only a few interactions. The only time these discussions would appear on screen is if they are necessary for the telling of the story or the building of the drama, right?

The reason I like to go back to the "literal" show is because many people repeat what they hear on other boards as gospel without verifying it. Coming to a Voyager forum and reciting something heard elsewhere isn't always going to met with open arms. Some critics watch one or two episodes and draw conclusions on characters and attitudes from that small of a sample. It is a mistake to judge any character on one or two episodes. Janeway's decisions aren't always as controversial as the one she makese in "Tuvix" nor is she as rigid as she was in "Equinox." Seven of Nine is much more than a Barbie doll with Borg implants. And so on and so forth.

I think it is only right to go back to the programs and see whether the critics on these boards are basing their opinions on fact or fancy. Better to see and judge with the real thing than to accept an interpretation, or an assumption, or a stereotype from someone else imho.

I wouldn't have even brought it up if I didn't find some agreement in it myself besed upon what I've seen within the series myself.
I don't know if it's actually factual but I also believe it might be possable.

 

[Anthony Sabre]

I forgot the first and most obvious example of an instance in which Janeway actually followed Chakotay's advice: Torres. He was the one who put her up for the chief engineer position and identified her as being the best engineer on the ship.