Spoilers Why do they need Dilithium?

[DaveyNY]

Perhaps the fact that Discovery seemed to appear behind Saturn as far as line-of-sight/sensors on Earth were concerned?
Also, perhaps once Discovery did appear, the Earth sensors didn't identify it as something to be concerned about due to it's 23rd century makeup.

They may have thought it was just a very old ship of little concern until Discovery was right on their doorstep.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd imagine that 810 years after that point Starfleet's sensors would have improved by an unimaginable amount.

Sensors are only as good as what they are programed to look for. A ship like Discovery may simply not trip alarms because it doesn't look like anything they are to be looking for.

Same with all the other times were they go "Oh, we don't scan for that." It happens. Tech is great, tech improves, but it isn't infallible. It's still made by beings who make mistakes.

 

[Deks]

Sensors are only as good as what they are programed to look for. A ship like Discovery may simply not trip alarms because it doesn't look like anything they are to be looking for.

Same with all the other times were they go "Oh, we don't scan for that." It happens. Tech is great, tech improves, but it isn't infallible. It's still made by beings who make mistakes.

Computer algorithms which are adaptive on the other hand do account for things that people don't.
And while it IS possible that Disco isn't tripping any sensors... I'd imagine that a ship (whatever it may be) travelling at impulse would.

Wen also detected Discovery as well.

 

[Timo]

Random points about the above:

1) The ship wasn't hidden from Earth by the bulk of Saturn: the light angles reveal she was well off to the side.
2) OTOH, the ship didn't warp in. While sensors in various Trek incarnations easily spot warpships across whole sectors, this apparently is by virtue of them being at warp.
3) So as far as Earth can tell, the Discovery never "arrived". It simply was there instead. And sensors need not be particularly good at showing this, in any era.
4) Even if a quiet, dark little vessel was spotted next to Saturn, Earth might think it was the Titanites again. I mean, if it were the scary and faraway raiders, who are always hunting for dilithium, they would be at warp - whereas the Titanites who have nothing to do with raiding and don't have dilithium or warp are just milling about in their sublight vessels, and not worth contacting or even keeping tabs on.

The ship arriving at Saturn explains why Wen's folks saw her, intuitively and without deep treknological assumptions. It would also be cute if this explained why Ndoye's folks did not, and why Burnham/Saru chose to arrive in this fashion - but this does take treknological knowhow and a bit of imagination.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

Computer algorithms which are adaptive on the other hand do account for things that people don't.
And while it IS possible that Disco isn't tripping any sensors... I'd imagine that a ship (whatever it may be) travelling at impulse would.

Wen also detected Discovery as well.

I don't think computers in Trek are that adaptive.

 

[Deks]

I don't think computers in Trek are that adaptive.

'Computer, create an opponent capable of defeating Data'.

Computers contain vast databases of information in real life... humans only retain a small grain of the said knowledge in any given field.
A computer algorithm (a real life one) is capable of sifting through ALL of the information in a fraction of a time a human (or a humanoid) would take and find things that work together... in trek, we've seen them doing this and more.

Latest is from ST: Lower Decks when Badgey created 3 computer viruses capable of attacking/disabling Pakled technology from monitoring communications alone.

On Voyager and DS9, computer algorithms were used to EXTRAPOLATE information from available data (guessing really, but making an incredibly accurate determination).

Torres was able to get the computer to extrapolate what her child will look like with only a few % of error... and how those extrapolations would appear with genetic alterations.

The EMH has an adaptive matrix (which was said to be the case on numerous occasions)... and he's basically a 'true AI' which is essentially a collection of adaptive algorithms working together (no offense Doc).
Making an adaptive algorithm isn't beyond the Federation in the 23rd century (nevermind the 32nd) - they created Control after all.

I'm just thinking the writers decided to dubm everything down for the sake of drama without even knowing what Trek is actually capable of on the worst of times (nevermind the best of times).

 

[fireproof78]

Making an adaptive algorithm isn't beyond the Federation in the 23rd century (nevermind the 32nd).

I didn't say it was. But, you make some good points. I don't agree with the conclusion, especially about the writers, but your examples are appreciated.

 

[Ronald Held]

Wouldn't the Titan raiders distroy/loot any sensor buoys not very close to Earth?

 

[fireproof78]

Wouldn't the Titan raiders distroy/loot any sensor buoys not very close to Earth?

Or simply know how to render them useless.

 

[Deks]

I didn't say it was. But, you make some good points. I don't agree with the conclusion, especially about the writers, but your examples are appreciated.

Well, Discovery writers seem to exhibit this notion when it comes to the 32nd century.
I leave an open mind I can be wrong, but I am skeptical we will get a more satisfying explanation beyond the handwaving we got thus far.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

The continuous dialogue from Saturn to Earth has only one weak link we might try and break. When Book and Burnham cease to speak about the spore drive, the camera moves immediately to Detmer stating that Earth is within visual range - but we could treat this as a cut that is three or four hours long, and not fifty milliseconds, to keep it consistent with ST:TMP where a trip half as long as this takes a bit under two hours.

Earth being on the viewscreen is synonymous to the heroes already being there, alas. Because immediately and integrally as part of this, Rhys performs a close analysis of the shield generator satellite they spot, and immediately after (during!) this, the satellite fires up and erects a forcefield around Earth - with the hero ship just one ship's length away!

Timo Saloniemi

I mentioned this earlier, but Earth could have been on the view screen and looking like that while Discovery was still out by Saturn. Magnification, even with 23rd century tech, could likely allow for that.

If you want a better cutaway for time to pass, that time passage might have happened right before we see the exterior shot from the rear of Discovery with the ship approaching Earth.

 

[Deks]

Wouldn't the Titan raiders distroy/loot any sensor buoys not very close to Earth?

Even the ones in Earth's orbit should have basic long range scanning capabilities that have lightyears worth of range (nevermind astrometric sensors from Voyager which could scan up to 2500 Ly's - and that was 24th century... not the 32nd... by the 32nd century, I'd expect them to be able to scan the entire galaxy).

 

[fireproof78]

Well, Discovery writers seem to exhibit this notion when it comes to the 32nd century.
I leave an open mind I can be wrong, but I am skeptical we will get a more satisfying explanation beyond the handwaving we got thus far.

I mean, I don't expect any satisfying answers at all so I guess we shall see.

 

[DaveyNY]

I still think Earth was only worried about their immediate vicinity, say out to about Mars.
So anything that pops up farther out which doesn't trip any alarms, isn't going to be of concern nor be investigated.

Computers only do what their programmed to do, if at this point in time,
'Isolationist Earth' isn't worried about anything approaching their "safe zone", then they aren't going to have their sensors looking for trouble way out on what would be beyond their principle galactic horizon.


This somewhat dovetails nicely into The Wrath of Kahn as well.
The Reliant crew wasn't obviously looking for anything that might be a problem for them, they were specifically searching for barren rocks with no life signs and apparently had their sensors set to just detect minimal life signs.
So finding Kahn on a planet that they thought was devoid of life, obviously through them off and they didn't react in a suspicious manner when beaming down.

 

[Timo]

I mentioned this earlier, but Earth could have been on the view screen and looking like that while Discovery was still out by Saturn. Magnification, even with 23rd century tech, could likely allow for that.

If you want a better cutaway for time to pass, that time passage might have happened right before we see the exterior shot from the rear of Discovery with the ship approaching Earth.

But the dialogue is no less continuous between the appearance of Earth on the viewer and appearance of an intriguing object in that view (to wit, the shield generator which immediately springs to life, right next to the hero ship) than it is between the appearance of Saturn and the appearance of Earth on the viewer.

If anything, Saru's good eyesight ought to discern that odd buoy the moment the image of Earth appears, so those events would have to be seamless. Much better IMHO to insert the cut between Book's gosh-and-wow recovery and Detmer's "here we are" comment, even if the actual stuff onscreen leaves only milliseconds there. Those two things aren't functionally connected!

As for the triggering of alarms, incoming warpships would do that. Since our heroes didn't arrive via warp, they're safe. Which is pretty much how intruder alert works, too: if you beam into a starship, the klaxons typically go off, but if you just plain get there by eldritch means, your presence as such may well go unnoticed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[valkyrie013]

Just read something on the xindi.. So had a thought, what happened to subspace vortexs ?
Those don't require warp.. Same with the other subspace corridors in the delta quadrant.
Not the same as quantum slipstream..
How about transwarp conduits?
I'm sure voyager had some Borg transwarp coils in its cargo bay..

 

[Deks]

Just read something on the xindi.. So had a thought, what happened to subspace vortexs ?
Those don't require warp.. Same with the other subspace corridors in the delta quadrant.
Not the same as quantum slipstream..
How about transwarp conduits?
I'm sure voyager had some Borg transwarp coils in its cargo bay..

Voyager did have a Borg TW coil onboard which it used to cut their journey by 20 000 Ly's.
Even a dead one would be highly usable for Starfleet to analyse and reproduce... and I'm sure Voyager took detailed scans of the thing both when fully operational and not.

Starfleet would likely be able to reverse engineer the technology in less than a decade (maybe two decades).

 

[Fateor]

Starfleet would likely be able to reverse engineer the technology in less than a decade (maybe two decades).

Don't forget, Civilian ships were able to access Transwarp Corridors as of Picard.

 

[Deks]

Don't forget, Civilian ships were able to access Transwarp Corridors as of Picard.

Yes, but those were pre-established ones (quite possibly the same ones we saw from TNG Descent two parter). As we know, back in TNG the Enterprise-D was able to access a TW conduit in Descent too by emanating a signal from its deflector dish.

Thought, the TW conduits we saw in Picard were arguably slow (much slower than the ones in Descent or later ones we saw in Voyager which were opened using a TW coil)... resulting in a speed of 25 lightyears in 15 minutes.
The Descent TW conduits allowed a speed of about 60 Ly's in about 10 seconds.

Even Quantum Slipstream version 1 was 300 Ly's per hour... which would give you 75 Ly's in 15 mins.

However, those TW conduits from Picard if they were the ones from Descent would have degraded in speed over time from lack of maintenance.
But, the TW conduits as we saw them on Voyager (through use of TW coil) also operated on different method... once you open one it closes behind it.

I guess the Borg can either have TW conduits which are kept in one place for long periods (like the one that was near Brunali homeworld in the DQ)... or they can open/close them to traverse other distances where they hadn't created longer lasting ones.

 

[Timo]

The nature of Borg travel has been discussed a lot in the VOY context. And yeah, the degradation issue is probably a big deal there. First you have to know where the conduit is. Then you have to know the trick of slipping in. And then, unless you have a transwarp coil of your very own, apparently a snowplow of sorts, you have to hope the conduit is still fully open. Perhaps some conduits are kept open in the long term because the Borg regularly plow them?

The Vaadwaur conduits might be decayed Borg ones, or perhaps cheap copies. Perhaps the Xindi ones were like that, too - or then future tech that still hasn't been invented as of the 3180s.

So... What happened to

a) the Borg?
b) transwarp coils that allow you to play Borg?

And are those two connected, perhaps?

Timo Saloniemi