Spoilers Why do they need Dilithium?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Fateor, Oct 29, 2020.

  1. BrotherBenny

    BrotherBenny Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have a different question about why the need for dilithium.

    They never mastered Quantum slipstream in over 900 years? Warp speed should have been relegated to the annals of history by now.
     
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  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But it hasn't. So, something must be beneficial for using dilithium to keep it going.
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    pen pals.

    Dilithium was blowing up.

    Related?
     
  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nope. Everyone knows this production team hates Star Trek.
     
  5. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Pretty sure they namedropped it in the first episode of the season along with other drives, only to say they weren't viable.
     
  6. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Commodore Commodore

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    I wouldn't be surprised that if you don't force open the conduits with your Transwarp Coils and sustain them with the Transwarp Conduit Gates that we saw at the End of VOY, you'd probably have to exert a ridiculous amount of energy to reopen new Conduits.

    Think of it as a Snow Plow clearing out Snow on a Snowy Day.

    If it snows heavily, the road condition will get worse and it'll be harder to use.

    The same effect can be with Transwarp Conduit Generators.

    Once it opens, it lingers open for a few hrs, and as SubSpace naturally heals itself, it becomes slower and slower for people who follow it's path later on until it's closed.

    Then you have to re-open and plow it again to make use of it.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Is it possible that some of them have started using relativistic drives?

    500 years to get anywhere useful and then 500 back?

    Trade would be pointless.

    By the time they reach their first destination, some one has reinvented ftl and you're a caveman.

    Of course...

    Relativistic drive plus time travel?

    Get to where you're going, and then to when we're going.
     
  8. Kzinti

    Kzinti Commander Red Shirt

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    it was however the benamite crystal were super rare so that why it's not viable
     
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  9. The Librarian

    The Librarian Commodore Commodore

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    Quantum slipstream is a method of travel. Dilithium-based reactors are a power source. Ships with slipstream would still have antimatter or otherwise dilithium-dependent cores and would have exploded just like everyone else.
     
  10. BrotherBenny

    BrotherBenny Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The dilithium was used to power the warp core, which in turn powered the rest of the ship. They also had fusion generators to power the impulse engines and the rest of the ship.

    But you're telling me that they never found another power source in 930 years?

    How many power sources have we come up with or improved upon in the last 200?
     
  11. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Commodore Commodore

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    Within the 24th Century alone there were multiple types of major reactors that can power a StarShip or Orbital Platforms.

    Fusion
    Matter/Anti-Matter
    Artificial Quantum Singularity
    Tetryon Reactors
    Borg Power Node (Unknown Method, but they do not use the above methods of Power Generation)

    Within DISCO alone, there was another method.
    Super Mycelial Reactor / Spore Drive
    The Spore Drive itself had to be deactivated and used the Spore Drives power reserves to charge up the Time Crystal like a battery so it can power the Red Angel Suit. That left the Spore Drive down and required 12 hrs to recharge it to useable levels.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
  12. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Or, we learned to occasionally accept artistic license from a show that wanted to foreshadow the origin of the raiders but not take the audience on a tour of the entire solar system. Just like, for instance, we accept artistic license in the form there being sound in a vacuum, or ships being visible to the naked eye in deep space where there should be insufficient concentrations of light for the to be visible.
     
  13. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Commodore Commodore

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    Book stated that his ship could achieve quantum slipstream but he lacked the benamite to do as it was apparently as hard to come by in the 32nd century as it was in the 24th. Benamite could be synthesised but it decayed quickly and was inherently unstable. So it seems to be a combination of a lack of naturally occurring benamite and the synthesised crystals not being adequate. Obviously Arturis's people were able to either find natural sources or effectively replicate reliable crystals. But given that they were able to evade the Borg for centuries and the Borg themselves had been around since the 1400's, Arturis's people were 1500 - 2000 years ahead of the Federation technologically, possibly more.
     
  14. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Which was established in late 24th century that benamite crystals can be synthesized in a few years.
    In 810 years since then, we're supposed to think Starfleet never managed to improve upon this process, even though realistically they would have been able to do so within a few years or decades at most since voyager returned home.
    Early 25th to mid 25th century at most for widespread use of quantum slipstream.
     
  15. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Actually no.
    Arturis' ship (the Dauntless) did not use benamite crystals for achieving quantum slipstream.
    Voyager was able to adapt that first iteration of the drive to its own warp core with a few modifications (and Tom Paris mentioned that the energy from the quantum drive has been routed through the deflector dish - which is what appeared to have been creating the Slipstream) but was subjected to quantum stresses which didn't allow Voyager's hull to maintain Slipstream for longer than 1 hour.
    And this version of the drive allowed a maximum speed of 300 lys per hour (in the late 24th century).
    For sustainable cruise velocity, the speed would have to drop to lower levels (about 714.28 Ly's per day) in order to get the crew back to federation space (60 000 ly's away) in 3 months as the fake message implied.

    It wasn't until 4 months after those events that the crew developed their own version 2 of quantum slipstream technology which used a combination of Borg technology, quantum matrix and benamite crystals (which was also much faster than Arturis fake Dauntless QS drive... topping out at about 10 000 lys per minute).

    So no, Arturis species was not 1500 to 2000 years ahead of the Federation. Not by a long shot. Maybe 50-100 (possibly 200) years at most (and mainly in areas of propulsion and particle synthesis).
    Why? Arturis' is just 1 species. The federation is comprised of over 150 member species working together. Exponential developments and return would be radically in Federation favor (also, the fact voyager was able to knock off fake Dauntless shields with a couple of photon torpedoes means the Federation was far ahead of Arturis species when it came to tactical technology).

    This is also why a lone Starfleet ship can reverse-engineer alien technology pretty fast and adapt it to their own.

    Any species can evade the Borg if they're aware of them. The Federation was not technically aware of the Borg before the Q flung enterprise d in front of that first cube.

    Even so, Starfleet should have been able to make even version 1 of quantum slipstream functional since that would only need a redesign of a ship's hull or enhanced structural integrity fields so they can cope with quantum stresses (and doesn't need benamite crystals to run). So even if Starfleet was sitting on their laurels for the next 800 years (which is utterly ridiculous), they'd still have a basic Quantum slipstream technology which would be able to traverse 60 000 lys in 3 months (or max out to 300 lys per hour for limited periods of sustainability in cases of emergency - answering distress calls, relief efforts, quick defense... etc.)

    Also, whatever happened to the notion of Starfleet being able to recrystalize dilithium since late 23rd century?
    Clearly the technology existed in the 24th century.

    But more to the point, dilithium and M/AM would have faded into obscurity by late 25th century.
    Look at fossil fuels today... the only reason they 'endured' this long was because of ridiculous subsidies they receive from across the globe (and renewables are rapidly replacing them just over 100 years later)... its not that electric vehicles or other types were impossible or not capable of replacing it decades ago... of course they were... electric cars even with limited range were more than practical for urban areas.
    Power generation was never constrained to fossil fuels... we also had Geothermal since 1911.. and Thorium since mid 20th century.

    It is HIGHLY unlikely that the Federation would have continued using dilithium and M/AM after the late 24th century (heck, even the 24th century is pushing it as is, but whatever) even if you wanted to use real world for a basis.
    Why?
    Well, as I mentioned above, technology and science evolve at an exponential pace and you get those returns at an exponential level.
    The Federation is comprised of dozens of species in the 23rd century and over 150 species in the 24th century.
    That's 150 different scientific perspectives with millions of scientists per species, with highly advanced automation and computer technology at their disposal.
    Computers in the 24th century could accurately predict events in holgoraphic simulations with just a few words... this alone would easily propel science and technology ridiculously forward based on just what the Federation had in its database BEFORE Voyager went into the DQ.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
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  16. Pierre

    Pierre Ensign Newbie

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    I haven't read ALL the thread so sorry if it's repeated or regurgitated from others. But....what about Trilithium? yeah it destroys the cores of stars. But even in DISCOVERY, they mentioned Quantum Slipstream Drive (Book himself). So, we're lead to believe that NO other fuel source has ever been created by another species that achieved warp drive. Put it this way. Not all alien species that develop warp technology will use Dilithium, although it's the most abundant and stable fuel source. There are many, many others. *scratches head*
     
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  17. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes. Apparently the writers love keeping things as they are for absurd periods of time without actually thinking about how technology advances in reality and then extrapolate that to star trek federation (which has over 150 different species working together that would further enhance development to an almost unimaginable degree).
     
  18. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Discovery also got another method of power generation.
    Xahea queen Po came on board the Discovery and used her dilithium recrystalizing technology to merge it with the spore drive and create an energy equivalent of a supernova.
    I'm pretty sure an analogy of this technology could be used when combined with non-M/AM power cells/energy sources of the 32nd century for massive power generation (equivalent or greater than supernova energy levels) which can provide power to everything and anything on a ship but in a way that DOESN'T disable the Spore Drive (for propulsion).

    I'm actually surprised that the Federation didn't come up with this kind of ability themselves by late 24th or early/mid 25th century.

    Its just that staying with dilithium and M/AM would be the same as staying with fossil fuels for 1000 years, and we know that's utterly moronic because we found the alternative to those a LONG time ago... and in the 100 years since we are using fossil fuels as primary method of electrification, we are seeing renewables taking over (without subsidies).
    Heck, Geothermal could have replaced fossil fuels for power generation since 1911 if we wanted to.. but massive lobbyists said otherwise... plus, the fossi fuel industry is still getting massive subsidies (if just a small portion of that went into Geothermal from the get go, I don't think our main energy production would be fossil fuel based... but instead, Geothermal).

    Similar with Trek... I am highly skeptical that dilithium and M/AM wouldn't have become obsolete by early/mid 25th century... shame on the writers... but unfortunately, this is what we have to work with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
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  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    Sometimes things don't work out as planned. Promising technology turns out to be a dead end, infeasible or unsafe.
     
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  20. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Voyager was able to make a faster (10 000 LY's per minute) version of Quantum Slipstream just 4 months after first encountering the technology (whose main limitation of application was in the quantum stresses that battered the Voyager hull which made it impossible for Voyager to maintain QS for more than 1 hour - that was Version 1, which also had a top speed of 300 Ly's per hour).
    If Voyager was able to make such a HUGE leap in the field, without a Starfleet core of engineers for backup in just 4 months... imagine what the Federation could do with the technology in a few months to 1 year since the ship returned home.

    This isn't such a huge deal to overcome... even if you wanted to use BASIC Version 1 QS technology, Starfleet would simply need to create a new class of ships (which they make all the time) with better hull that can withstand the quantum stresses, and/or modify structural integrity so that existing ships can withstand the quantum stresses better (at any rate, they can still use Quantum Slipstream in shorter hops of say 30 mins to cross 150 Ly's if needed - yes, structural integrity would drop to 50% in that time frame, but you can easily repair it after usage).

    It won't be V2 of QS technology that Voy used in Timeless (which also had a speed of 10 000 Ly's per minute), but V1 would still be easily applied since it required minor modifications to the Warp core.

    Also, I'd be surprised if 25th century SF ships hulls couldn't withstand the quantum stresses a lot better what with being made with superior materials and having far superior structural integrity fields.
     
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