So it was only one episode, you were earlier saying that they never did. And haven't you sort of answered your point, it was a front line base, surely the very type of base you would try and ensure that was fully manned and supplied.
Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link
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So it was only one episode, you were earlier saying that they never did. And haven't you sort of answered your point, it was a front line base, surely the very type of base you would try and ensure that was fully manned and supplied.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree about Scorpion. Because evidence points a different direction.
Part of me is confused by the notion that the audience was annoyed at Scorpion for not lasting longer, yet would also be annoyed for aliens repeating episode to episode. Certainly, it is difficult to please all audience members, but that doesn't mean that everyone hated it. Perhaps they wanted Scorpion to continue because that was the kind of show that was expected.
VOY would have been critiqued-fact of life, all shows deal with it. Some are nitpicks, as several other posters have recently demonstrated, but some are problems inherent to what was produced on screen. VOY had a proposed plot, but lack any follow through on that. Again, regardless of the viability of the "Lost Ship" plot, it still wasn't attempted. At least attempt it, please
VOY's circumstances were not unique in that Trek had never done it before. It was unique because it was 1) a new place that has never been seen before 2) a different mix of crew, were you could have some conflict, as the two crews grow together and intermix. I doubt anyone is asking for seven years of conflict-that is a bit of a stretch to have that expectation. We're talking about Maquis and Starfleet not Capulet and Montague here.
Also, VOY had a tendency to do things that were flagrant rip offs of Trek tropes. The Kazons turned in to discount Klingons, without the benefit of cloaking devices or melee weapons. There was the requisite "anomaly of the week" a TNG staple that did little to add to VOY's characters, as well as a holodeck malfunction plot multiple times. We have the character split/fusion routine, like "The Enemy Within" and Tuvix. No doubt you can find connections all over the place, but it might sound like nitpicking.
The problem isn't that VOY did things that other Trek shows did or had done. The problem comes back to the execution, the implications, whether it matters to the characters, and the originality of the presentation. Yes, it has all been done before, but you can add your own unique spin, unique flavor without it being identical. VOY had its limits, but never challenged them. It was content inside its box.
Farscape, since it keeps coming up, built itself up through characters. The first season, right until Nerve, was a bit of a hodgepodge mix of good and bad. It wasn't always the best of stories, and some aliens or situations never get visited again. But, the characters were changing and becoming a single crew, despite mistrust and misgivings. By the end, the conflict was replaced with a loyalty and mutual respect.
That's the difference. VOY had more to work with because the audience knew Starfleet, knew the ideals and the concept, and not we can put them in different situations and test those ideals. Say what you want about DS9 or even Abrams Trek, but they took the idealized Federation and put it to the test.
Again, I don't hate VOY. There are many things I can list that I like, such as Tuvok, Paris, or the Delta Flyer. However, there are very few episodes that I like, unlike, say TOS or TNG or even DS9 (which has grown on me in recent years). It just feels like just had the formula and stuck with it, no matter what. So, it was a bit frustrating to have a surface level formula, rather than some of the deeper, more memorable themes that ran with DS9 and even the TOS movies.
As a quick aside, DS9's pylon being repaired: isn't this the series that talked about industrial level replicators, used for infrastructure rebuilding? A pylon strikes me as not a big deal. Bajor even had one of these replicators.
Audience hypocrisy, trust me it happens a LOT with VOY's audience.
VOY had a proposed plot, but lack any follow through on that. Again, regardless of the viability of the "Lost Ship" plot, it still wasn't attempted. At least attempt it, please
I agree, but it still wasn't a sustainable plot for more than a season or so.
I doubt anyone is asking for seven years of conflict-that is a bit of a stretch to have that expectation. We're talking about Maquis and Starfleet not Capulet and Montague here.
Agreed again, especially since the Feds and Maquis weren't even real enemies to begin with.
It's what would happen to any long-running series. Doctor Who does it too and just uses the same aliens over and over instead of inventing new stuff.
New writers and more time might've solved this. But VOY came at a bad time wherein most involved were going into burnout. DS9 got the resources it needed, VOY didn't.
And transplanting those characters to Trek wouldn't have worked. Farscape had the advantage of not being a long-runner and had no excess baggage from prior series because it was all-new.
Problem was, it was still a limited concept that had already been explored more than once before.
Again, the show didn't really have a plot. If they had more time, maybe they'd have thought of one.
Still, they did between episodes with no reference to how they repaired it.
Wasn't VOY one of UPN's flagship shows surely it would have gotten the resoures it needed. It might be more reasonable to say that because more attention by the suits were focused on VOY, DSN was left to it's own devices so to speak.
And whos fault is that they didn't have more time? It's not the audiances fault, they could easily have spend another year developing it, but TPTB wanted it more or less after TNG ended.
The fact that the concept had been explored before is irrelevant, most if not all stories have been explored before it's what you do with the concept that matters and even if certain aspects of the plot aren't sustanable for more than a season or two that isn't a reason not to try.
Haven't even some of the people who worked on VOY agreed with some of these critisims of VOY?
And whos fault is that they didn't have more time? It's not the audiances fault, they could easily have spend another year developing it, but TPTB wanted it more or less after TNG ended.
The fact that the concept had been explored before is irrelevant, most if not all stories have been explored before it's what you do with the concept that matters and even if certain aspects of the plot aren't sustanable for more than a season or two that isn't a reason not to try.
Haven't even some of the people who worked on VOY agreed with some of these critisims of VOY?
Audience hypocrisy, trust me it happens a LOT with VOY's audience.
I agree, but it still wasn't a sustainable plot for more than a season or so.VOY had a proposed plot, but lack any follow through on that. Again, regardless of the viability of the "Lost Ship" plot, it still wasn't attempted. At least attempt it, please
Agreed again, especially since the Feds and Maquis weren't even real enemies to begin with.
It's what would happen to any long-running series. Doctor Who does it too and just uses the same aliens over and over instead of inventing new stuff.
New writers and more time might've solved this. But VOY came at a bad time wherein most involved were going into burnout. DS9 got the resources it needed, VOY didn't.
And transplanting those characters to Trek wouldn't have worked. Farscape had the advantage of not being a long-runner and had no excess baggage from prior series because it was all-new.
Problem was, it was still a limited concept that had already been explored more than once before.
Again, the show didn't really have a plot. If they had more time, maybe they'd have thought of one.
Still, they did between episodes with no reference to how they repaired it.
Quick note: DS9 had access to resources that VOY (supposedly) did not. A fix off-screen is more reasonable than a ship stranded. Again, YMMV but DS9 being supported isn't surprising, but, as keeps getting pointed out, the premise of VOY is nonsupport and far away from home. I have no problem with alien stations and support, but it has been pointed out that VOY was supposedly unsupported.
Audiences are fickle creatures, regardless of fandom. VOY does not suffer from it any more than another series. Just search the web from Abrams hatred. It's pretty thick right now.
VOY's audience had, as Macleod stated, legitimate reasons to be frustrated. They were not the ones in charge, and it is not the audience's fault that there was no plot. After 7 years, a show should have a plot of some kind, in my opinion. If a product is failing to win support, then that product is pulled. Working in retail, I often see products last may two to four years, and if it doesn't perform, its gone. TV may not be identical, but the mindset will be the same.
No, I'm not asking Farscape characters to be transplanted to VOY. That is not the point I am trying to make nor is that something I wish for. Farscape did something different that really wasn't Trek. My point was how they used their characters, some alien, to carry the show as it found its footing. Having characters that have arcs, whether small growth or larger term growth is what makes shows more interesting and approachable, in my experience. Characters that don't change are not a bad thing, but if the whole crew remains, for the most part, stable, then it can feel unrealistic, static and formulaic. People change, and a more modern audience has expected characters that change. Not good, not bad, just is.
Regardless of the sustainability of the "Lost Ship" premise, it was promised and then not done. That creates a frustration on the part of the audience that they are not getting what they expected. In all honesty, that would frustrate anyone.
VOY had seven years. Seven years is more time than many shows get, and plenty of time to recognize deficiencies and change them. You really don't need more time. You need a willingness to challenge the status quo.
What he said.
DS9 wasn't cut off from the Federation, war or no war. Besides, they had more episodes featuring faulty equipment than VOY ever had. Would it have killed them to make this a bit more of an issue? Or at least not have the ship get reset to factory settings by the start of the next episode? Like I said, BSG did a really good job with this.
Didn't DS9 had till season 4 almost every episode problems with failling systems on the station, untill she got the upgrades or "Teeth" like Sisko calls it in WOTW?
No, they still had problems.
It was incompatibility issues, and that they couldn't requisition spare parts from Cardassia even when they were not at war with each other, which is why they had to strip Empok Nor for parts.
If the Federation was allowed to build a new starbase in Bajoran space they would have, but starbases are like the Federation pissing on space marking their territory and it was too early in their relationship to be urinating on each other.
It was incompatibility issues, and that they couldn't requisition spare parts from Cardassia even when they were not at war with each other, which is why they had to strip Empok Nor for parts.
If the Federation was allowed to build a new starbase in Bajoran space they would have, but starbases are like the Federation pissing on space marking their territory and it was too early in their relationship to be urinating on each other.
Just a random thought, but would it be worth asking 'Why do Voyager fans hate Star Trek?' 
Why? 
^ This
Why do blue birds suddenly appear, every time you are near?
A raven.
Sorry.
Why do ravens suddenly appear, every time you are near?
Why do ravens suddenly appear, every time you are near?
And whenever they did any repairs whatsoever, regardless of the reason, the audience got PO'ed.
Everytime they tried a new plot, they got just panned.
If they had a smaller, more manageable cast and actors who had chemistry from Day One, that'd be easier.
Yes, but it still wasn't sustainable. It would've gotten boring after a season or so regardless and then the audience would just complain over how they stuck to the Lost Ship thing.
7 years of network oppression and audience hatred.
And Voyager was in areas of space loaded with helpful aliens.
And rarely was it a major issue and not some minor background thing.
It would've gotten real boring, real fast.
NuBSG fell apart after 2 seasons and also used the reset button.
The fan reaction, at least from what I have been reading, is mixed. There doesn't seem to be a blanket opinion that encapsulates the whole story. However, it definitely an up and down process, partially due to the inconsistency of the storytelling, and partially due to other factors at the time, including competition, saturation of the Trek brand, and several other things. Fan response, while a factor, can hardly be the only thing, when the reviews I read are so mixed.
Despite the rough patches, "7 years of oppression and hatred" yielded 20+ awards, of various kinds and 60+ nominations for awards. Interesting to consider.
So, the "Lost Ship" premise is unsustainable, and I think we can agree to that point. But, my larger point still stands: they did not carry forward with that premise. VOY rolled right from Caretaker to "The Cloud" which was a TNG style, anomaly of the week. If that is fine by others, ok, and I won't tell them that they can't enjoy it. Just, it isn't the premise of the show, and that bothers me. The VOY crew just wasn't consistent. Yes, a smaller crew might have made things better, but it still means you need characters the audience cares about.
VOY could have been more unique in that it was cut off from the Federation, but could make allies along the way, or find resources, or make adjustments. It could have shown real drama in the crew making decisions that matter, things that could be mistakes, and consequences. That's the kind of character stuff that would help-make things matter, even in just one episode.
In any case, it would require change to the ship and crew in order to function. Something different, maybe. Sure, you get audience resistance, at first, but if you do a good job, then it becomes more positive. It's true in any product. Creativity works well in the face of challenges, if you allow it to be so. Just look at Nick Meyers and Wrath of Khan.
Maybe VOY seems to get more beat up because more people watched and are more vocal in there displeasure. I had a similar thing with Into Darkness, were it seemed that the majority of fans did not like it. Wasn't the case, but I heard a lot of negative reviews. Maybe similar here
The show also came at the wrong time. It should've come after DS9, like Berman wanted.
TOS got by with only 3 Central characters. Other shows like Xena and Hercules got by with 2 leads. VOY could've worked with a smaller main cast.
They shot themselves in the foot with their "No Support" part of the premise too.
To be fair, all Meyer did was transplant his Horatio Hornblower stuff to space. And Wrath of Khan had plenty of plot holes in it that ruin the plot if you think about it, but the audience was willing to overlook its many flaws.
Haven't you wondered why no one is agreeing with you?
You're constantly fighting the same battles with each new crop of noobz as they turn up.
You're constantly fighting the same battles with each new crop of noobz as they turn up.
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