Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link

[fireproof78]

If VOY had done the same thing, you think the audience would've been OK with that?
then?

I'll address this question, since fighting with multiple quotes is not my strong suit (yet).

Yes. Yes, the audience would have been ok with it, if the writers were committed to it.

As a quick aside, DS9 did have several episodes that revolved around casualty lists and their impact on the crew. Several choices were made to reduce the body count. The impacts may not have been directly referenced but the impact could be felt by the crew in their reactions to things.

Not everything has to be on-the-nose, stated in the dialogue to be a part of continuing character arcs. Character arcs involve change, not direct call backs to previous episodes.

This is why I struggle with VOY. The characters never felt like the changed or that they might be wrong, or that something important happens can maybe impact something down the line. VOY's characters rarely felt that way to me.

Like you said, Sisko had tensions with Kira, Kira had tensions with Dukat, and things grew out of that. No, it did not stay that way because the characters grew out of that. Audiences, as a general rule, want character growth or change, otherwise, what is the point? It doesn't have to be 7 years of conflict, but there should be some minor conflict (again, DS9) that evolves into something more.

VOY never felt like it evolved.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Voy didn't evolve, but they did become very good at what they could do.

Besides Voyagers job was to target a demographic.

Demographics stay he sameish because as members of the demographic you are interested in evolve into a different sort of person with different tastes and different buying habits, those absentees are replenished by fresh blood looking for something a little more meaty than sitcoms on Nickelodeon to make them feel good.

It's a living system, that knows if they are making TV for 14 year old boys, there will always be more 14 year old boys, but if the 14 year old boys that grew up, start making demands on media, that are listened to, there will be no more 14 year old boys for next season, because 14 year old boys don't give a shit about the needs and wants of a 20 something year old man.

 

[Anwar]

Yes. Yes, the audience would have been ok with it, if the writers were committed to it.

Look, VOY just had a harsher audience than the other shows did. Even a great episode like "Living Witness", the only reaction that episode got was "The EMH can't be backed up!".

Nothing else mattered, not the story or the acting or any of that. All the audience cared about was that petty plot point and they let it ruin the whole episode for them.

Honestly, how do you win against pettiness like that?

As a quick aside, DS9 did have several episodes that revolved around casualty lists and their impact on the crew.

Not much of an impact, they were usually A-Okay by next episode. Even Sisko was unchanged from "In the Pale Moonlight".

Not everything has to be on-the-nose, stated in the dialogue to be a part of continuing character arcs. Character arcs involve change, not direct call backs to previous episodes.

Then why did the audience complain that every single thing had to be remembered and referenced?

This is why I struggle with VOY. The characters never felt like the changed or that they might be wrong, or that something important happens can maybe impact something down the line. VOY's characters rarely felt that way to me.

Like the TOS characters everyone loves?

It doesn't have to be 7 years of conflict, but there should be some minor conflict (again, DS9) that evolves into something more.

VOY never felt like it evolved.

That's usually what happens when you have a Gilligan plot and any and all attempts at trying a new plot (Scorpion, the Void) are met with critical panning.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes. Yes, the audience would have been ok with it, if the writers were committed to it.

Look, VOY just had a harsher audience than the other shows did. Even a great episode like "Living Witness", the only reaction that episode got was "The EMH can't be backed up!".

Nothing else mattered, not the story or the acting or any of that. All the audience cared about was that petty plot point and they let it ruin the whole episode for them.

Honestly, how do you win against pettiness like that?

You don't. You create a good story and keep going with it. The fans can be wrong in what they want. But, you don't craft a premise and then not have any of it matter in the execution of the show.

As a quick aside, DS9 did have several episodes that revolved around casualty lists and their impact on the crew.

Not much of an impact, they were usually A-Okay by next episode. Even Sisko was unchanged from "In the Pale Moonlight".

A-Ok is a loose definition. There was a definite fatigue felt with the war grinding on, and the actions that Sisko had to take to fight it. Again, no on-the-nose, "Wholly crap, I can't believe I killed someone last time" but a different feeling to the character.

Then why did the audience complain that every single thing had to be remembered and referenced?

Because fans gripe.

This is why I struggle with VOY. The characters never felt like the changed or that they might be wrong, or that something important happens can maybe impact something down the line. VOY's characters rarely felt that way to me.

Like the TOS characters everyone loves?

Yes, TOS characters felt like they went through changes. Again, it isn't on the nose statements. It's the presentation of the character and their maturing process. Also, TOS was presented as more episodic, but VOY was supposed to have a running arc of trying to get home, just like DS9 developed a running arc of the Dominion War.

It doesn't have to be 7 years of conflict, but there should be some minor conflict (again, DS9) that evolves into something more.

VOY never felt like it evolved.

That's usually what happens when you have a Gilligan plot and any and all attempts at trying a new plot (Scorpion, the Void) are met with critical panning.

I keep trying to find the critical panning you reference, but I am afraid I don't have the numbers you do. So, I find that hard to believe when all my research indicates is a mild positive reception to Scorpion.

Fans are going to gripe. Fans will complain about continuity errors, changes, etc. That's what fans do, regardless of the fandom. This is not directed towards any one group of fans or things like that. It is just my general experience that fans will complain about something.

Plus several of the writers/producers complained about what the audience wanted versus what they wanted, such as Jeri Taylor gripping that the audience didn't like the Gothic novel subplot on the holodeck. Guess what, people who tune in to a sci/fi show are not looking for a Gothic mystery novel. Different demographics, as Guy Gardner pointed out

 

[Goji]

"The Void" was an "attempt at trying a new plot"? The completely stand-alone episode that was aired 10 episodes before the series went off the air? That's what we would call "a little on the late side, fellas".

I am also intrigued by this notion that Voyager's audience had apparently been assimilated by the Borg, thus losing the ability to develop and express individual reactions and opinions to what was showing up onscreen beyond the collective will of "VOYAGER BAD." This might go a long way to explain why the writers kept writing stories about the Borg, if they had become their primary audience demographic.

 

[MacLeod]

Yes. Yes, the audience would have been ok with it, if the writers were committed to it.

Look, VOY just had a harsher audience than the other shows did. Even a great episode like "Living Witness", the only reaction that episode got was "The EMH can't be backed up!".

Nothing else mattered, not the story or the acting or any of that. All the audience cared about was that petty plot point and they let it ruin the whole episode for them.

Honestly, how do you win against pettiness like that?

Sure "Living Witness" was one of VOY better episodes, as for the petty plot point as you call it. Didn't several episodes both before and after make a plot point about how the EMH can't be backed up?

The wrtiers can't have it both ways either the EMH can or can't be backed up. And if they can back him up once, they can do it again.

So is not a petty plot point, it's the writers treating the viewer as idiots.

So it is possible to praise an episode as well as critisie it.

 

[NewHorizon]

The wrtiers can't have it both ways either the EMH can or can't be backed up. And if they can back him up once, they can do it again.

This was my main issue with Voyager. I watched it but, more often than not, I found myself feeling very frustrated when an episode was over.

I enjoyed Living Witness, it was a great piece of storytelling but yeah...the writers just decided to ignore their own rules...which happened quite a bit on that show.

I really didn't care much for the characters either. I don't fault the actors, they did their best with what they had to work with.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In Eye of the Needle (s01e06), the crew was leaving, but the Doctor couldn't be backed up, so he was being left behind to float.

Everytime the Doctor downloads his program into his mobile emitter from Sickbay THAT IS HIM BACKING HIMSELF UP!

A couple months earlier, when his program was cut and pasted to the AQ (Copy and paste you ####ing idjits!) in Message in a bottle, THAT WAS BACKING HIMSELF UP!

Being kidnapped by Starling? Backing himself up!

Besides, after Swarm the Doctor had a new body that wasn't unintrenchably integrated completely into Sickbay.

Hells if you want to argue that him moving his program to the holodeck is backing his program up, you can, and that just happened a couple episodes after Eye of the Needle, in Heroes and Demons.

 

[MacLeod]

When you back-up a program it exists in two locations, the original location and the back-up location. In the case of the EMH,, the program exits only in one location be it the ships computer or the mobile emitter or onboard another starship.

So if the EMH was in the mobile emitter and that was destroyed guess what the program would be lost, as their is no back-up copy to restore it.

What we are seeing when the EMH uses the mobile emitter is the program being transfered from one location to another.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Sigh"

Covered that.

when his program was cut and pasted to the AQ (Copy and paste you ####ing idjits!)

In Eye of the Needle the Doctor said that the program could not be stored, copied or transferred because there was integrated hardware in sickbay that was vital to his program he could not ever be separated from. They would have to take all of sickbay to take him.

KES: Everyone's talking about it. There may be a way to transport all of us to the Alpha Quadrant. Chief Torres and half of engineering are working on it right now.
EMH: I see. Well, I'll say goodbye now. I won't be transporting with the rest of you.
KES: But can't we download your programme and take you with us?
EMH: My programme is fully integrated into the sickbay system. At present I cannot be downloaded.
(Kes kisses him on the cheek.)
KES: Thank you for everything.

 

[BillJ]

Look, VOY just had a harsher audience than the other shows did. Even a great episode like "Living Witness", the only reaction that episode got was "The EMH can't be backed up!".

I missed this episode first-run and always heard how great it was, then I finally saw it. It really wasn't very good, there are easily forty episodes of the series that I found better. But none of it was due to the backup EMH non-sense. It just wasn't a very satisfying watch.

 

[Anwar]

You don't. You create a good story and keep going with it. The fans can be wrong in what they want.

"Best of Both Worlds", "Errand of Mercy" or "Balance of Terror" could've been VOY episodes and the audience still would've reacted negatively.

A-Ok is a loose definition. There was a definite fatigue felt with the war grinding on, and the actions that Sisko had to take to fight it. Again, no on-the-nose, "Wholly crap, I can't believe I killed someone last time" but a different feeling to the character.

Nothing Sisko did in "Pale Moonlight" affected his character from that point on, though. There was no hint of self-loathing or increased ruthlessness.

Also, TOS was presented as more episodic, but VOY was supposed to have a running arc of trying to get home, just like DS9 developed a running arc of the Dominion War.

VOY had Gilligan syndrome, they gave it a plot that they could never accomplish without ending the show. DS9 did NOT have a plot that couldn't be accomplished, and thus it worked out better.

I keep trying to find the critical panning you reference, but I am afraid I don't have the numbers you do. So, I find that hard to believe when all my research indicates is a mild positive reception to Scorpion.

Then the audience shouldn't have complained that VOY (Scorpion to be specific) ruined the Borg.

Sure "Living Witness" was one of VOY better episodes, as for the petty plot point as you call it. Didn't several episodes both before and after make a plot point about how the EMH can't be backed up?

And that plot point was neutralized with the Mobile Emitter.

So is not a petty plot point, it's the writers treating the viewer as idiots.

TOS and TNG did the same thing (TOS with subspace radio, TNG with the Trill), no one cared there.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Opinions vainly masquerading as facts.

 

[Anwar]

Opinions vainly masquerading as facts.

If BOBW had been a VOY episode, VOY's audience would've thought it was a dumb idea for the Borg to assimilate Janeway, for the Cube not to just destroy Voyager there on the spot after the deflector weapon failed, for them to not be able to just destroy Voyager easily when they try to distract the Borg long enough to get Janeway back, and what a dumb ending 'Sleep' would've been.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Opinions vainly masquerading as facts.

If BOBW had been a VOY episode, VOY's audience would've thought it was a dumb idea for the Borg to assimilate Janeway, for the Cube not to just destroy Voyager there on the spot after the deflector weapon failed, for them to not be able to just destroy Voyager easily when they try to distract the Borg long enough to get Janeway back, and what a dumb ending 'Sleep' would've been.

Your opinion not withstanding the show ran the francise seven year plan, sold and continues to be seen in the US and abroad as well as selling video collections, sells books and other merchandise, and folks still come to conventions to see the actors. Your opinion is nothing more than vain bluster.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Remember your drunk uncle who has to sit at the kids table on Thanksgivings because he's been telling the same stories for 20 years at inappropriate volumes?

**Burp**

Everyone fulfils a necessary archetype to keep the place running.

Me?

I'm ugly naked guy of course.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Here I was imagining Peter Ustinov in 'Hotel Sahara'. Are you sure you wouldn't look good in a fez?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Have you noticed that this is one of those magically abusive threads that pop up from time to time?

When I entered, the front page said...

Why do Star Trek fans hate...
by Gov Kodos

And now that I've made a post, the stupid bugger has probably decided to pick on me now.



I'll take a look at that movie later on today, if I can find it.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Have you noticed that this is one of those magically abusive threads that pop up from time to time?

When I entered, the front page said...

Why do Star Trek fans hate...
by Gov Kodos

And now that I've made a post, the stupid bugger has probably decided to pick on me now.



I'll take a look at that movie later on today, if I can find it.

It's a light comedy set in North Africa during WWII. He and Yvonne De Carlo are an amusing way to pass a slow Sunday afternoon. There's a decent upload on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXeBx2n1zT4

 

[Lance]

VOY had Gilligan syndrome, they gave it a plot that they could never accomplish without ending the show.

I'm afraid I've never bought that excuse. Sure, the format would have to change, because "getting back to Earth" was the raison detre of the whole enterprise. But there's no reason why, within reason, and especially after DS9 was off the air and the Alpha Quadrant was up for grabs again, that they couldn't have found fertile ground for episode plots in bringing Voyager home and acclimatising her back into a post-war Starfleet. Sure the show would be different, but it wouldn't mean they'd have to cancel it or something. Whereas you know, Gilligan's Island isn't Gilligan's Island without the island.