Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

[Saquist]

Didn't say it was...

You say it wasn't intended to be recurring but in the same episode they Gunan is talk with Picard and she says "now that they know about humanity..." Picard finishes his statement, "they'll be coming."

Then there is the episode before Q Who about the neutral zone and bases that had been destroyed...sounds like a set up and recurrence to me.

 

[zar]

You say it wasn't intended to be recurring but in the same episode they Gunan is talk with Picard and she says "now that they know about humanity..." Picard finishes his statement, "they'll be coming."

That's not what I mean by recurring. My other examples, Andorians and Cardassians, also had subsequent appearances in the shows they originated, but were never major players, nor were they intended to be, until ENT and DS9; and for the Borg, not until VOY.

Then there is the episode before Q Who about the neutral zone and bases that had been destroyed...sounds like a set up and recurrence to me.

Again, that version of the Borg was scrapped by the time Q Who came along. The Borg that we see in Q Who were created for Q Who only. They were never intended to replace the Ferengi as TNG's recurring bad guys as the original Neutral Zone concept was. That concept, along with several others from that era, were aborted by a writers' strike. Those Borg were supposed to come from the Alpha Quadrant, not be introduced by Q 7000 light-years away. The whole point was for Q to show them something terrifying that they had never encountered before, not "those guys you encountered in season 1".

 

[Luminus]

So basically Luminus has helped point out that ALL the Borg vessels in VOY were smaller than the one we saw in TNG, right? None were as massive as that Assimilation Cube?

So then they were ALL smaller and weaker than in TNG, explaining discrepancies in why VOY had an easier time.

I hate you. Grrr.

Just kidding. Sigh. That would be correct.

But I can guarentee the producers and writers of the show never gave a thought to them being bigger or smaller than the TNG cube and how their strengths would compare. It came down to the CG artist's idea of what looked nicest. That's all. Therefore it has no meaning.

Also true, technically.

 

[zar]

So basically Luminus has helped point out that ALL the Borg vessels in VOY were smaller than the one we saw in TNG, right? None were as massive as that Assimilation Cube?

So then they were ALL smaller and weaker than in TNG, explaining discrepancies in why VOY had an easier time.

I hate you. Grrr.

Don't worry. The Assimilation cube on the chart is 3000M, so what you have actually helped point out is that this cube is in fact the variant-2 cube, not the one in TNG. The tactical cube is also 3000M, but the chart incorrectly displays it as 1500M. The 3KM variant-2 is the one in First Contact which still took an entire fleet and Picard's inside knowledge to defeat, so no, this doesn't explain the discrepancy at all.

 

[Anwar]

The chart is made by the same guys who wrote the article, so I'm guessing they didn't run a last check over it. The massive Cube on the chart is the one from TNG, and I suppose by the article the Tactical Cube AND the normal looking Cubes are supposed to be the 1500M ones. They only put the Tactical Cube on the chart.

So, again, all the Borg in VOY were smaller and weaker than from TNG.

Sure, it doesn't matter in the end because the audience was still going to hate that they just used weaker Borg ships, but what can you do with an unpleasable audience?

 

[zar]

The chart is made by the same guys who wrote the article

No it isn't.

I suppose by the article the Tactical Cube AND the normal looking Cubes are supposed to be the 1500M ones.

Indeed the standard cubes in VOY are the same size as the tactical cubes, but they are NOT 1500M. They are 3000M, the same as the strong one from FC.

The size results from the internal volume of 28 cubic kilometers mentioned in VOY: "Dark Frontier", yielding a length of 3040m. The size chart for "First Contact" in Star Trek: The Magazine (March 2001) shows the cube at 9000ft = 2743m. The difference is small enough to postulate that there is actually only one size.

 

[Anwar]

Yet this still doesn't explain the Cube in Q Who? and BOBW which was the "massive" one with no measurements that even the article writers think was much bigger than the FC/VOY ones.

So again, the Borg in VOY were never using the massive Cube seen in TNG and the difference in power is right there in front of us.

But like I said, it ultimately doesn't matter if they gave an explanation since you'd hate whatever explanation given.

 

[zar]

You concede that the tactical cube is the same size as the standard cube as seen in FC, yet still argue that it's weak ? The FC cube was a major threat that was beating the entire fleet to a pulp.

 

[Saquist]

That's not what I mean by recurring. My other examples, Andorians and Cardassians, also had subsequent appearances in the shows they originated, but were never major players, nor were they intended to be, until ENT and DS9; and for the Borg, not until VOY.

So you wanted and entire series of exposition before TNG to set up the Borg?

Again, that version of the Borg was scrapped by the time Q Who came along. The Borg that we see in Q Who were created for Q Who only. They were never intended to replace the Ferengi as TNG's recurring bad guys as the original Neutral Zone concept was. That concept, along with several others from that era, were aborted by a writers' strike. Those Borg were supposed to come from the Alpha Quadrant, not be introduced by Q 7000 light-years away. The whole point was for Q to show them something terrifying that they had never encountered before, not "those guys you encountered in season 1".

Interesting...
Plans change all the time bu it does seem clear that the encounter at the Neutral Zone was meant to herald their arrival.

 

[Anwar]

You concede that the tactical cube is the same size as the standard cube as seen in FC, yet still argue that it's weak ? The FC cube was a major threat that was beating the entire fleet to a pulp.

The FC Cube was weaker than the one in TNG: In TNG they Armada couldn't even scratch the Cube whereas in FC they were able to do damage to it before Picard told them where the weak point was.

The FC Cube was still smaller than the one from TNG.

So it all comes down to "Yes, I need them to spoon feed it to me that the Borg ships were weaker than the massive one from TNG."

 

[zar]

The FC Cube was weaker than the one in TNG: In TNG they Armada couldn't even scratch the Cube whereas in FC they were able to do damage to it before Picard told them where the weak point was.

The FC Cube was still smaller than the one from TNG.

It was still depicted as an utterly hopeless battle.

So it all comes down to "Yes, I need them to spoon feed it to me that the Borg ships were weaker than the massive one from TNG."

Again you're implying that this was their intent behind it, and I'm simply too thick-headed to pick up the subtle clues they left. There were no clues because they weren't trying to depict that. They can't spoon-feed food they don't have.

If I were you, I'd stick with T'Girl's angle which says "what the producers intended doesn't count, only what was on screen is canon." That, at least, is capable of being defended. What you're saying is provably false.

 

[Anwar]

And what we see on-screen is that all Borg encounters, starting in FC, had Borg ships smaller and weaker than the one in TNG.

 

[sonak]

What happened to the Borg was neither series' "fault" exactly, it was inevitable given two conditions:


1.The Borg were supposed to be almost unstoppable

2. The Borg became extremely popular villains who drew a lot of fanbase interest and enthusiasm


see, you can't really have an almost unstoppable villain that you keep bringing back and then defeating. It just doesn't work. But they wanted to keep using the Borg because they were cool, so you can't have it both ways. Either use them sparingly and preserve the scariness, or keep using them for the ratings, but diminish their power as they are continually defeated.

 

[Saquist]

The Borg weren't God.
The fans irrationally portray the Borg as imminently and permanently unstoppable. That was never said in the series and the series also never said that humans couldn't fight the borg at all. The fans simply believed the Borg's opening line more than the writers did. "Resistance is Futile"

 

[Stephen!]

The FC Cube was weaker than the one in TNG: In TNG they Armada couldn't even scratch the Cube whereas in FC they were able to do damage to it before Picard told them where the weak point was.

Maybe they were just slightly better prepared, the second time the Borg invaded. More powerful starships such as the Sovereign Class, quantum torpedoes, more resistant shields etc

 

[zar]

And what we see on-screen is that all Borg encounters, starting in FC, had Borg ships smaller and weaker than the one in TNG.

It was still depicted as an utterly hopeless battle.

Perhaps you can say that the cube in FC was "weaker" than the one in BOBW because they were at least able to scratch the hull (although this is better explained by the fact that Starfleet has new weaponry), but the fleet still stood no chance. It was certainly not weak. Yet the ones in VOY are the same type of cube.

 

[Anwar]

It wasn't utterly hopeless, they were still doing better than Wolf 359. Hopeless would be if they hadn't dented the Cube at all the whole time.

And like it was pointed out here, the one and only time VOY even destroyed any Cubes it was with future tech meant for killing Borg.

 

[zar]

It's not about whether Voyager can destroy a cube or not.

Chipping away at the external hull was useless because there wouldn't have been enough time to do any decisive damage. It was a battle of attrition. Starfleet's entire force was being picked off, one by one. Yes - Hopeless.

And we must accept that Voyager, a single starship, can dance around like a fly and survive attacks from these very same cubes. Or that Seven's parents in their little boat can walk right up to Borg Central and spy on them...

Now we can dream up all kinds of explanations for these things until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it doesn't negate the statement: "Voyager weakened the Borg." It just updates it to: "Voyager weakened the Borg, and then I used my imagination to strengthen them again."

 

[exodus]

Then they should've had some discussion about it at some point, something like "These Borg creatures were once considered out greatest threat. Nowadays we know that they're just one of many."

They weren't, so why would they say that they were? Of all the threats Q alluded to, the Borg WERE the only actual threat to them because the Borg were the only ones who knew about their existence and had any reason to come after them.

Why does everyone forget the Q as beings more powerful than the Borg and possible threats? There was proof there were beings more powerful than the Borg right in front of us since "Farpoint..."

Q could have shown us ALL the other alien threats in the galaxy and none would be considered more of a possable threat than him.

 

[exodus]

You concede that the tactical cube is the same size as the standard cube as seen in FC, yet still argue that it's weak ? The FC cube was a major threat that was beating the entire fleet to a pulp.

The FC Cube was weaker than the one in TNG: In TNG they Armada couldn't even scratch the Cube whereas in FC they were able to do damage to it before Picard told them where the weak point was.

The FC Cube was still smaller than the one from TNG.

So it all comes down to "Yes, I need them to spoon feed it to me that the Borg ships were weaker than the massive one from TNG."

No, FC happened after BOBW.
In BOBW the Admiral states Starfllet was already in development of better weapons, shields & ships but they just hadn't finished building them yet. BTT FC happens many of those weapons are already installed on Starships. Proof is Voyager now equipped with Tri-Cobalt torpedos. The Borg in FC weren't weaker, we had upgraded our shields & weapons.
It had been four years inbetween BOBW and FC. Plenty of time to upgrade a fleet.