Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

[exodus]

It's not about whether Voyager can destroy a cube or not.

Chipping away at the external hull was useless because there wouldn't have been enough time to do any decisive damage. It was a battle of attrition. Starfleet's entire force was being picked off, one by one. Yes - Hopeless.

And we must accept that Voyager, a single starship, can dance around like a fly and survive attacks from these very same cubes. Or that Seven's parents in their little boat can walk right up to Borg Central and spy on them...

Now we can dream up all kinds of explanations for these things until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it doesn't negate the statement: "Voyager weakened the Borg." It just updates it to: "Voyager weakened the Borg, and then I used my imagination to strengthen them again."

If Voyager was built after BOBW and after the Defiant.
Wouldn't Starfleet also keep in mind that if the Borg are coming that all new ship build after the Defiant would have to be equipped with defenses to fend off an attack? Why would they keep making ships that weren't safe and keep sending good Officers out in them? It's why they kept stressing how top of the line Voyager was and why it had gel packs to make computer processing as fast as thought..............similar to a Borg Cube.
Without the Tri-Cobalt torpedo's, Voyager can't beat a Cube but it's designed to take a beating, defend itself and run.

 

[Luminus]

No, FC happened after BOBW.
In BOBW the Admiral states Starfllet was already in development of better weapons, shields & ships but they just hadn't finished building them yet. BTT FC happens many of those weapons are already installed on Starships. Proof is Voyager now equipped with Tri-Cobalt torpedos. The Borg in FC weren't weaker, we had upgraded our shields & weapons.
It had been four years inbetween BOBW and FC. Plenty of time to upgrade a fleet.

No. It had been 6 years and in that time the Borg are also upgrading their technology at a MUCH faster rate. So nothing Starfleet comes up with could ever stand a chance.

 

[exodus]

No, FC happened after BOBW.
In BOBW the Admiral states Starfllet was already in development of better weapons, shields & ships but they just hadn't finished building them yet. BTT FC happens many of those weapons are already installed on Starships. Proof is Voyager now equipped with Tri-Cobalt torpedos. The Borg in FC weren't weaker, we had upgraded our shields & weapons.
It had been four years inbetween BOBW and FC. Plenty of time to upgrade a fleet.

No. It had been 6 years and in that time the Borg are also upgrading their technology at a MUCH faster rate. So nothing Starfleet comes up with could ever stand a chance.

Is it stated in an ep. that the Borg are upgrading on a faster rate or do we just assume that?

"Hope & Fear" gave the impression that they don't upgrade that fast. "Dark Frointer" showed that even with assimilated knowledge, they could still be fooled using tech they already knew about. Shouldn't the rotating shields not work anymore or allowing a few Borg to die before they adapt to phaser fire? Borg shields should activate upon the first shot if upgraded, especially since they assimilated Starfleet Engineers with knowledge of all that. If we don't stand a chance, why is the Queen still trying to figure out how to bring down our resistance? Why not just come and take us?

 

[Anwar]

And we must accept that Voyager, a single starship, can dance around like a fly and survive attacks from these very same cubes. Or that Seven's parents in their little boat can walk right up to Borg Central and spy on them...

The ENT-D survived attacks from the much more powerful Cube in BOBW.

Seven's parents being allowed to observe the Borg fits every other appearance where the Borg just ignore folks until they do something to get noticed.

No. It had been 6 years and in that time the Borg are also upgrading their technology at a MUCH faster rate. So nothing Starfleet comes up with could ever stand a chance

Which is why the Borg are only good for 1-2 stories.

 

[zar]

Which is why the Borg are only good for 1-2 stories.

I don't buy that for an instant, but for the sake of argument let's say you're right.

How is this a defense?

VOY chose to ignore this supposed fact, so the responsibility and blame is still theirs.

 

[Anwar]

No, it's TNG for not getting rid of them in a final way in the first place. At least DS9 ended the Dominion story with SOME conclusion so it'd be okay to not see them again.

 

[zar]

Oh I see -- because TNG didn't wrap up the Borg and put a little bow on them, the other series were forced to continuously bring them back. I guess that's why they kept showing up in DS9. And why we kept seeing the Whale Probes, Genesis technology, Farpoint Squids, planet killers...

 

[Anwar]

The Planet Killer was a one-shot destroyed in the end.

The Jellyfish were one-shots.

The Genesis Tech was revealed to be inherently flawed and thus wrapped up.

The Whale Probe was a one-shot.

DS9 did what you're SUPPOSED to do with a massive new threat: wrap them up in a way that ends the story appropriately even if you didn't destroy said enemy (The Dominion).

VOY had them in the Borg homeland, it wouldn't make sense for them NOT to repeatedly show up.

Now, if TNG had done more to wrap up the Borg instead of just leaving them alone (like finding the Transwarp Conduit that leads to the Alpha Quadrant and destroying it, or explaining that each Borg Cube is its own Collective and that One Cube didn't tell other Borg about the Alpha Quadrant, ANYTHING really) then that would be that.

Instead, they irresponsibly just left them out there waiting for their next invasion.

 

[zar]

Instead, they irresponsibly just left them out there waiting for their next invasion.

Like this, you mean?

SPOCK: "I can't help wondering if there are any more of those [planet killers] wandering around the universe."



What are you talking about? How were any of those wrapped up? Who built the probe and the planet killer? Where's the rest of the species the jellyfish belong to? Genesis wasn't inherently flawed, it was only flawed because of the unauthorized shortcut David took. And there are tons of other examples.

VOY had them in the Borg homeland, it wouldn't make sense for them NOT to repeatedly show up.

The Delta Quadrant wasn't Borg Homeland any more than the Alpha Quadrant was the homeland of all of the above. Both of them are a quarter of the entire galaxy.

VOY was under no continuity obligation to have Voyager come across the Borg, they merely had greater opportunity -- an opportunity which according to you, they shouldn't have taken at all... yet they did, so I once again bizarrely find myself in the position of defending VOY against your arguments, which are becoming more and more flimsy by the post.

 

[Anwar]

SPOCK: "I can't help wondering if there are any more of those [planet killers] wandering around the universe."

Random conjecture isn't the same as Guinan and Q pretty much telling us the Borg are coming back.

What are you talking about? How were any of those wrapped up?

They were never made out to be anything more than One-Shots to begin with. They were not expounded upon in their episodes the way the Borg were.

]The Delta Quadrant wasn't Borg Homeland any more than the Alpha Quadrant was the homeland of all of the above. Both of them are a quarter of the entire galaxy.

The Gamma Quadrant was one quarter the Galaxy, didn't stop DS9 from continually saying the Dominion ran most of it.

And TNG itself said that the Borg were from there in "Descent".

VOY was under no continuity obligation to have Voyager come across the Borg.

TNG said they were from there, and DS9 made out the Dominion (weaker than the Borg) to be the ruling power of the Gamma Quadrant. Put these together and you get the Borg ruling the majority of the Delta Quadrant, and thus VOY would run into them a lot for the entire show's run.

And they couldn't do anything creative like try and build a Delta Alliance to fight off the Borg, because that would violate the show's premise.

 

[zar]

Random conjecture isn't the same as Guinan and Q pretty much telling us the Borg are coming back.

And they did come back. BOBW could have easily been their last appearance, for the same reasons that Doomsday was the first and only appearance of planet killers.

The Gamma Quadrant was one quarter the Galaxy, didn't stop DS9 from continually saying the Dominion ran most of it.

And...? What connection does that have to the Borg? Please explain the course of logic that lead you from "The Dominion run most of the Gamma Quadrant" to "The Borg run most of the Delta Quadrant". DS9 said A. TNG never said B.

And TNG itself said that the Borg were from there in "Descent".

No, the Delta Quadrant wasn't even mentioned until FC.

 

[Anwar]

In "Descent" there's a screen readout on the Transwarp Conduit, and it says that it exits into the Delta Quadrant. As in, that's where it goes and Starfleet knows that's where the Borg are located. It's how they knew the Borg were there when they said so in FC.

"And they did come back. BOBW could have easily been their last appearance."

Which wouldn't match up with what Guinan said about them in Q Who?

Sure, they could have done so and gotten away with it because it was TNG and not VOY, which is just double standard but they'd still be out there without the plot being resolved properly.

And...? What connection does that have to the Borg? Please explain the course of logic that lead you from "The Dominion run most of the Gamma Quadrant" to "The Borg run most of the Delta Quadrant". DS9 said A. TNG never said B.

The Dominion are an expansive aggressive group that managed to apparently take over most of their home Quadrant (DS9 keeps flip flopping on whether they really rule the GQ or not), the Borg are older and more powerful than them so it makes sense that they'd similarly rule the Delta Quadrant.

The alternative would be for there to be other species in the DQ that can fight off the Borg and rival them for control of the DQ, and as we saw in VOY the audience can't stand the mere thought of any other species as powerful as the Borg existing anywhere.

 

[zar]

In "Descent" there's a screen readout on the Transwarp Conduit, and it says that it exits into the Delta Quadrant. As in, that's where it goes and Starfleet knows that's where the Borg are located. It's how they knew the Borg were there when they said so in FC.

First of all, a graphic isn't canon.

So, the conduit leads to the DQ, therefore the Borg are all clustered throughout the entire DQ? The other end of the conduit is, of course, in the AQ. So I guess that means they rule the AQ too?

All this tells us is that the Borg have a way of traveling between the AQ and DQ.

DS9 considered using the Borg as an enemy, having them come through the GQ wormhole. It was never established where the Borg had their major forces and base of operations until VOY.

"And they did come back. BOBW could have easily been their last appearance."

Which wouldn't match up with what Guinan said about them in Q Who?

QH: Guinan says they're coming back.
BOBW: They come back, they are defeated.
The end.

At that point, for all we knew, the BOBW cube was the same cube as in QH, and it was the only one. At the end of BOBW, the Borg were "wrapped up" just as well as the planet killer was at the end of TDM: The threat is destroyed, and the crew is left hoping that's the last of them, but they're not sure... the end.

The Dominion are an expansive aggressive group that managed to apparently take over most of their home Quadrant (DS9 keeps flip flopping on whether they really rule the GQ or not), the Borg are older and more powerful than them so it makes sense that they'd similarly rule the Delta Quadrant.

How did we know how old the Borg were? And you're sidestepping the point. Nobody said the Borg were spread all over the DQ, therefore there was no continuity obligation to encounter them there.

The alternative would be for there to be other species in the DQ that can fight off the Borg and rival them for control of the DQ

Dude, it's a quadrant of the galaxy, not a continent. Nobody has to be in control, and if they are, there's no logical reason that the mathematical delimitation of quadrants would mark the borders of their influence.

 

[T'Girl]

a graphic isn't canon

If it appears on a view screen during the course of a episode, then it is canon.

Even the Okudagrams that were initially unreadable , but became clear later owing to HD, are canon.

 

[exodus]

a graphic isn't canon

If it appears on a view screen during the course of a episode, then it is canon.

QFT

At that point, for all we knew, the BOBW cube was the same cube as in QH, and it was the only one. At the end of BOBW, the Borg were "wrapped up" just as well as the planet killer was at the end of TDM: The threat is destroyed, and the crew is left hoping that's the last of them, but they're not sure... the end.

If the implication to the audience is that characters in the series are left unsure, then the writers are leaving us with the impression that it might not be the end. I know I for one was never left with the impression they were wrapped up due to that implication.

. Nobody said the Borg were spread all over the DQ, therefore there was no continuity obligation to encounter them there.

We shouldn't have to be told, we learned about conquers in history class. We know the Borg look for tech, people and information to grow and assimilate. How would you find all that if you didn't send your armies(cubes) out into space looking for it? So yes, one should expect when traveling thru the DQ, that the Borg are also out there looking for new species to assimilate.

 

[zar]

^That's why I said "wrapped up" in quotation marks. I'm not saying they are, but according to Anwar's criteria they are: If the planet killer is considered wrapped up after TDM, then the Borg can be considered wrapped up after BOBW.

 

[exodus]

^That's why I said "wrapped up" in quotation marks. I'm not saying they are, but according to Anwar's criteria they are: If the planet killer is considered wrapped up after TDM, then the Borg can be considered wrapped up after BOBW.

Honestly, you both are arguing semantics on that one because you're both right. It was an open ended conclusion, so at the time of BOBW it was 50/50 either way.

 

[zar]

^That's why I said "wrapped up" in quotation marks. I'm not saying they are, but according to Anwar's criteria they are: If the planet killer is considered wrapped up after TDM, then the Borg can be considered wrapped up after BOBW.

Honestly, you both are arguing semantics on that one because you're both right. It was an open ended conclusion, so at the time of BOBW it was 50/50 either way.

You're not following this conversation. That WAS my point -- it's open-ended, just like the planet killers and all those other examples of high tech or powerful beings.

The problem is Anwar's own semantics doesn't agree with itself. He says BOBW didn't "wrap up" the Borg, but TDM did "wrap up" the planet killers. You can't have it both ways.

Nobody said the Borg were spread all over the DQ, therefore there was no continuity obligation to encounter them there.

We shouldn't have to be told, we learned about conquers in history class. We know the Borg look for tech, people and information to grow and assimilate. How would you find all that if you didn't send your armies(cubes) out into space looking for it? So yes, one should expect when traveling thru the DQ, that the Borg are also out there looking for new species to assimilate.

Again. It's a quadrant. Not a continent.

The conduit in TNG only revealed a SINGLE POINT that belongs to the Borg. It could have been the tip of an iceberg that extends outside the galaxy, and/or to parts of the Beta and Gamma quadrants.

Why should we have assumed that their area of influence was confined to, and fully encompassing, the Delta Quadrant -- an area of space whose borders are defined by nothing but the result of dividing by four??

The only reason we assume the Dominion controls the entire Gamma Quadrant is because DS9 explicitly said so. Dominion space would most likely extend across the borders of the quadrant as well.

It's not a territory.

It's not a barrier.

It's two lines drawn with a ruler and measuring tape.

 

[exodus]

You're not following this conversation.

Forgive me but no I really haven't.
Both of you have been going on for a couple of pages, I really don't have the patience/time to read it all. I the best I could do is skim. I hope you can empathize with that.

Why should we have assumed that their area of influence was confined to, and fully encompassing, the Delta Quadrant -- an area of space whose borders are defined by nothing but the result of dividing by four??

I'm not.
They've stated once the Borg are present in all four quads, however due to that I still would expect to see them in what was their quad of origin.
I know the difference between a land mass and open space.

 

[zar]

Why should we have assumed that their area of influence was confined to, and fully encompassing, the Delta Quadrant -- an area of space whose borders are defined by nothing but the result of dividing by four??

I'm not.
They've stated once the Borg are present in all four quads.

OK, scratch "confined to". Why does having a single point in an arbitrary division of space necessitate that a ship lost anywhere within that arbitrary division encounter them? If the galaxy were only divided into halves, and the conduit exited into the Beta Half, then anyone in that half must encounter the Borg? This is what Anwar is claiming -- that the writers had no choice but to have Voyager go through Borg Central, just because it was the Delta Quadrant.