Why all the focus on B4 for Picard series? What about using Lore?

Discussion in 'Future of Trek' started by ConRefit79, Aug 7, 2019.

  1. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    A lot of speculation based on the end of Nemesis and the 2009 Countdown comic says Data is resurrected in B4's body. But there is not talk on using Lore's body. Nemesis said B4 was too primitive. I wonder if Geordi would try to over-write Lore's Neural Net with Data's engrams.
     
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  2. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hmmm..... I think if Data's rights are recognized then, like it or not, they would also apply to Lore. You can't overwrite one person's engrams with someone else's. Unless after Lore died in "Descent, Part II", his essence was irretrievable, in which case it actually is just a shell that could be a donor body.

    If all he has to do is be fixed, and then the essence of Lore comes back, then it raises all kinds of ethical questions.
     
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  3. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    But at the same time, Data is essentially doing the same thing to B4.
     
  4. A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees

    A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees Captain Premium Member

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    Dr Soong said that except for a small bit of programming they were identical. If Data can survive 500 years as a disembodied head under San Francisco, and given that Lore was still talking when Data shut him off, my money's on Lore's consciousness more likely than not still being intact
     
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  5. NewHeavensNewEarth

    NewHeavensNewEarth Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hopefully there will be a flashback to the lab, with Data, Lore, B4, and the doc all hanging out. A fistful of 'em.
     
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  6. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I interpreted it as they wanted to pull a TWOK where Spock mind-melded with McCoy and transferred his katra over. So that lead to jumbled Spock/McCoy mental hybrid in TSFS. That must have been John Logan's intent. He wanted Nemesis to be TNG's Wrath of Khan. I haven't read them, but I'm guessing that in all the novels and comics, Data's sentience became dominant and B4's became recessive and Data's stronger sentience asserted itself over B4's.

    I'm not saying Data's mind couldn't have been transferred over to Lore. I'm just raising everything that would go along with it. And this is a TNG-related series, PIC will probably be the closest to TNG we've had since "All Good Things", so those kinds of dilemmas would be pondered, I'd imagine, if this is supposed to be a more cerebral show. Picard might just decide, "The Hell with it!" and come up with a rationale to back up that stance.

    It's also entirely possible that Picard, true to character, debates what's right and what's wrong, then Dahj takes action and brings back Data anyway. Sparing Picard from having to agonize over anything. "What have you done?" "What we needed to do. Because [insert plot-related reason here]. You know it's what you wanted to do anyway."
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
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  7. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    "Consider that in the history of many worlds there have always been disposable creatures. They do the dirty work. They do the work that no one else wants to do, because it's too difficult or too hazardous. And an army of Datas, all disposable? You don't have to think about their welfare; you don't think about how they feel. Whole generations of disposable people."
    "You're talking about slavery."
    "I think that's a little harsh."
    "I don't think that's a little harsh, I think that's the truth. But that's a truth that we have obscured behind a... comfortable, easy euphemism. 'Property'. But that's not the issue at all, is it?"

    No the issue is I need a body for my friend Data, so let's kill this other dude.
     
  8. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's murdering Lore.
     
  9. NewHeavensNewEarth

    NewHeavensNewEarth Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Maybe transfer Lore into Moriarty's storage device so they can become buds and take over the Storage Universe. ;)
     
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  10. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    He's pretty much dead. Or indefinitely imprisoned. Don't recall if Data was aware while he was disembodied for hundreds of years. And again, if Data is really back in the new series, what happened to B4 existence? Data + B4 like Tuvix. Personally I prefer Q yank him out at the last minute because he felt he owed Data more.
     
  11. Delta Geminorum

    Delta Geminorum Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I thought Data was dead, just like the Borg. May he rest in peace.
     
  12. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    So did I. But I’ve read that he’s in Picard. And there are stills of him. That combined with the Countdown comic(ST2009 prequel) has him commanding the Enterprise. And I think that is considered canon by the studio
     
  13. Phoenix219

    Phoenix219 Commodore Commodore

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    That would be a great buddy-combo adventure story. The bantering and bickering would be fantastic. Since Moriarty is traditionally Data's foe, it would be perfect to have Lore as a team-up partner. Maybe even in the same body... hilarious.
     
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  14. NewHeavensNewEarth

    NewHeavensNewEarth Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The odd couple, for sure. And Moriarty would drive Lore up the wall with always calling him "My dear Mr. Data..."
     
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  15. Push The Button

    Push The Button Commodore Commodore

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    I forget, is there a Treknobabble reason why the Soong android hardware just couldn’t be replicated? Otherwise you could scan and replicate Lore’s physical parts, reformat his positronic net, and upload Data into him. Everybody wins. Sounds too easy though ..
     
  16. dinzy

    dinzy Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    They absolutely wanted it to be a Wrath of Khan. It was even said in some interviews leading up to the film. The last time we saw Picard was with a cliffhanger on whether or not they would restore Data from a backup. It makes sense that they included this as a story line in this series because they left many TNG fans expecting this.

    B4 in the drawer just means that Data's memories are intact and that B4 died eliminating any controversy if they use the body. I don't see why they would even restore Data to B4's body. He is inferior so would need a new positronic net capable of running Data. The rest is all just spare parts. Data is just memory plus a positronic net to run on.

    Rewatching Trek as an adult is interesting because so much of it is absurd. What the hell is a positronic net supposed to even be? Why the hell would a computer require anti-electrons to do anything? Wouldn't containing the positrons be so cost prohibitive that it would negate any of the benefits of that technology over another? Asimov, a chemist, not a physicist made it up in the 40s. Trek should not have copied that. They should have just made up some quantum computer name and went with that. Perhaps they thought the positronic brain was a quantum computer. Either way something built with positively charged anti-electrons that would violently react with all matter unless confined by extremely strong and geometrically precise magnetic fields does not seem like the best design for an android. Data is also about as fast a computer as a couple of top GPUs you can buy for gaming.
     
  17. A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees

    A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees Captain Premium Member

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    If you're talking about during the series, my recollection is that replicating the physical hardware was easy, but creating a complex neural net - the "consciousness" - and keeping it stable was incredibly difficult.

    That's what made Lal so special. Data was able to keep a new neural net functional in that android much longer than anyone since Dr. Soong. So the technobabble answer is that yes they can create a body, and probably even transfer Data to it temporarily, but keeping that android stable enough for those memories to stay intact long term was unlikely to succeed.

    Of course, IMO, this in-universe theory I think breaks down pretty easily. How is it that literally for decades, after intensive study of the androids, no cyberneticist anywhere is able to reproduce Soong's work? The man left no notes? Wrote no papers? If no one was able to reproduce it, doesn't it make the whole work somewhat suspect? They simply wanted Data to be unique and irreplaceable, and in the process twisted themselves into a bit of an illogical corner of an explanation. Then, partially undid that by creating first one, then two duplicates.
     
  18. DaveyNY

    DaveyNY Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't remember exactly, but didn't Data use a bit of himself (his own memory core?), to create Lal?



    How do you figure Two "Duplicates"?
    B4 was an earlier much inferior model
    Lore was a followup attempt that got corrupted
    Then came Data the first successful attempt
    (who actually had to be shut down for a time after showing that he could mimic a Human too well and was 'adjusted' to be not so perfect)
    Then apparently came Juliana
    (who had no clue she was even an android)

    All four were created by the same guy, Dr. Soong.
    (and yes, he apparently DID NOT leave any "notes" due to finding that his well meant experiments could go very awry and/or be corrupted by others)
    :cool:
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
  19. Phoenix219

    Phoenix219 Commodore Commodore

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    How do you think a twist would have worked that explained that Soong actually found Android's rather than built them? It would have opened the door for a pre-Lore original, too, while using the original pitch for the character.

    Juliana reminds me of a TOS Korby Android who has no idea she was a copy.
     
  20. A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees

    A Chimpanzee & 2 Trainees Captain Premium Member

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    If I remember, he precisely copied, incrementally, his positronic links in Lal's brain, with the goal of creating a hardware duplicate of his neural network with its own distinct memories and programs running on it.

    As far as duplicates, you are correct, there aren't three Datas. I was thinking of Lore and B4 at the time. I don't see a whole lot of difference between them other than the programs that are running in them. Of course, that's partially rooted in my own bias to not see the character of Data as an actual person, and also in the fact that they are all the same actor.
    Perhaps twin is more accurate.

    As far as the Dr. is concerned, whether he left notes or not, it's hard for me to believe that his research so outpaced the rest of his field that it's taken decades (and counting?) to catch up. If it were any sort of real world, it would definitely make me suspect his "achievements' were a hoax, especially in a universe where the scientific community spans dozens, maybe even hundreds of worlds.