Whose fault, if any can be given, was it for Voyager not good?

[The Overlord]

Voyager was great from the start.

But the people in suits and their hired hands slowly ruined it.

And other people in suits and their hired hands continue to ruin it with more character destruction.

"They talk about creating but all they do is kill
They say we're gonna mend it but they never will"

"No No No"
Deep Purple

Considering the first couple of seasons of Voyager had some of the worst Trek episodes ever, like Twisted and Threshold, I don't see how the first couple of seasons were that well written. Voyager didn't stick to its premise, that's a huge problem.

 

[exodus]

Voyager was great from the start.

But the people in suits and their hired hands slowly ruined it.

And other people in suits and their hired hands continue to ruin it with more character destruction.

"They talk about creating but all they do is kill
They say we're gonna mend it but they never will"

"No No No"
Deep Purple

Considering the first couple of seasons of Voyager had some of the worst Trek episodes ever, like Twisted and Threshold, I don't see how the first couple of seasons were that well written. Voyager didn't stick to its premise, that's a huge problem.

You forgot "The Rise", "Time & Again", "Ex Post Facto", "Heroes & Demons", "Innocense", "Remember".........
Wait, I think I'm going to dry heave.

 

[Gojira]

Considering the first couple of seasons of Voyager had some of the worst Trek episodes ever, like Twisted and Threshold, I don't see how the first couple of seasons were that well written. Voyager didn't stick to its premise, that's a huge problem.

I just purchased the first 3 seasons of Voyager on DVD and had a marathon viewing of the first three seasons and I completely disagree. Sure there was a stinker or two but no worse than any other Trek series. I really enjoyed the first three seasons and there are many episodes that I will view again and again.

 

[exodus]

Considering the first couple of seasons of Voyager had some of the worst Trek episodes ever, like Twisted and Threshold, I don't see how the first couple of seasons were that well written. Voyager didn't stick to its premise, that's a huge problem.

I just purchased the first 3 seasons of Voyager on DVD and had a marathon viewing of the first three seasons and I completely disagree. Sure there was a stinker or two but no worse than any other Trek series. I really enjoyed the first three seasons and there are many episodes that I will view again and again.

I feel the same but objectively after TNG & DS9, you really expect better than "Time & Again" as a 3rd ep. or a bad rehash of a DS9 ep. like "Ex Post Facto" in the first season. They've been planning this show out since DS9's 3rd season and they have nothing new written and the most frightening part of the new villain is their hair?The character profiles for Neelix & Kes were underdone. There are points in Voyager's first few years you feel there is nobody behind the wheel and that they didn't much much deep thought into it beyond "Caretaker".

 

[The Overlord]

Considering the first couple of seasons of Voyager had some of the worst Trek episodes ever, like Twisted and Threshold, I don't see how the first couple of seasons were that well written. Voyager didn't stick to its premise, that's a huge problem.

I just purchased the first 3 seasons of Voyager on DVD and had a marathon viewing of the first three seasons and I completely disagree. Sure there was a stinker or two but no worse than any other Trek series. I really enjoyed the first three seasons and there are many episodes that I will view again and again.

But see that's not Voyager's biggest problem, sure all the Trek shows have really bad episodes, that's going to happen with every TV show. Voyager's problem is it mediocre, it has more forgettable and bland episodes then the previous 3 trek shows. The truly great episodes are far and few between for Voyager compared to other series. Episodes like the Inner Light, All good Things, City on the Edge of forever won Hugo awards, no Voyager epiode has done that. Also DS9 episodes dealt with really weighty topics, like war, sacrifice, duty, honor, corruption, genocide, etc while Voyager was using technobabble to get out of anomalies

Again the problem is they ditched the premise almost from the outset, the Maquis Star fleet tension just disappeared and none of the hardships of having to make tough decisions to survive in the unknown came to pass, they still had the Holodeck for Heaven's sakes. Instead Voyager came off as TNG lite, instead of its own beast.

 

[exodus]

I just purchased the first 3 seasons of Voyager on DVD and had a marathon viewing of the first three seasons and I completely disagree. Sure there was a stinker or two but no worse than any other Trek series. I really enjoyed the first three seasons and there are many episodes that I will view again and again.

But see that's not Voyager's biggest problem, sure all the Trek shows have really bad episodes, that's going to happen with every TV show. Voyager's problem is it mediocre, it has more forgettable and bland episodes then the previous 3 trek shows. The truly great episodes are far and few between for Voyager compared to other series. Episodes like the Inner Light, All good Things, City on the Edge of forever won Hugo awards, no Voyager epiode has done that. Also DS9 episodes dealt with really weighty topics, like war, sacrifice, duty, honor, corruption, genocide, etc while Voyager was using technobabble to get out of anomalies

Nor has any Trek film, that doesn't mean anything.

"Faces', "Real Life" & "Latent Image" all have nothing to do with any technobabble, all just as good and worthy as all you've named. "Inner Light" & "All Good Things". Two eps. in 7years? "Inner Light" doesn't even get #1 on the top 10 TNG eps., "BOBW" always does. An action/adventure ep raved by due to the cliffhanger.
If awards and great emotional eps meant anything to Trek fans, "Trouble with Tribbles" wouldn't keep getting #1 all time favorite Trek episode.

 

[The Overlord]

But see that's not Voyager's biggest problem, sure all the Trek shows have really bad episodes, that's going to happen with every TV show. Voyager's problem is it mediocre, it has more forgettable and bland episodes then the previous 3 trek shows. The truly great episodes are far and few between for Voyager compared to other series. Episodes like the Inner Light, All good Things, City on the Edge of forever won Hugo awards, no Voyager epiode has done that. Also DS9 episodes dealt with really weighty topics, like war, sacrifice, duty, honor, corruption, genocide, etc while Voyager was using technobabble to get out of anomalies

Nor has any Trek film, that doesn't mean anything.

"Faces', "Real Life" & "Latent Image" all have nothing to do with any technobabble, all just as good and worthy as all you've named. How many years did it take just for TNG to get a script like "Inner Light" & "All Good Things". Two eps. in 7years?
If awards and great emotional eps meant anything to Trek fans, "Trouble with Tribbles" wouldn't keep getting #1 all time favorite Trek episode.

I think the Inner Light, City at the Edge of Forever, All Good Things are better then the episodes you mentioned, when people think of classic Trek I don't think Faces comes to mind. Trouble with Tribbles may have been a light hearted, but it was memorable one, I'm more likely to remember that then Faces. Faces is a fairly good episode, but not one of the series best.

Again I'm not saying that Voyager had no good episodes, I'm saying it was more mediocre then the previous trek shows and frankly I stand by my opinion that it had fewer truly great episodes then the previous series.

 

[exodus]

Nor has any Trek film, that doesn't mean anything.

"Faces', "Real Life" & "Latent Image" all have nothing to do with any technobabble, all just as good and worthy as all you've named. How many years did it take just for TNG to get a script like "Inner Light" & "All Good Things". Two eps. in 7years?
If awards and great emotional eps meant anything to Trek fans, "Trouble with Tribbles" wouldn't keep getting #1 all time favorite Trek episode.

I think the Inner Light, City at the Edge of Forever, All Good Things are better then the episodes you mentioned, when people think of classic Trek I don't think Faces comes to mind. Trouble with Tribbles may have been a light hearted, but it was memorable one, I'm more likely to remember that then Faces. Faces is a fairly good episode, but not one of the series best.

Again I'm not saying that Voyager had no good episodes, I'm saying it was more mediocre then the previous trek shows and frankly I stand by my opinion that it had fewer truly great episodes then the previous series.

Yes because it is just that, an opinion.
Sorry but what you feel is memorable only really applies to you.
"I don't think" is just guessing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You take a beutiful woman and force her to wear Groucho Marks eye brows, and then just for a laugh in one episode, you double the mass of those eye brows all over again.

 

[Kadratis]

Everything did, it was just a snowball effect.

 

[The Overlord]

I think the Inner Light, City at the Edge of Forever, All Good Things are better then the episodes you mentioned, when people think of classic Trek I don't think Faces comes to mind. Trouble with Tribbles may have been a light hearted, but it was memorable one, I'm more likely to remember that then Faces. Faces is a fairly good episode, but not one of the series best.

Again I'm not saying that Voyager had no good episodes, I'm saying it was more mediocre then the previous trek shows and frankly I stand by my opinion that it had fewer truly great episodes then the previous series.

Yes because it is just that, an opinion.
Sorry but what you feel is memorable only really applies to you.
"I don't think" is just guessing.

Where did I say this wasn't just my opinion?

Yeah and saying Faces ranks up there with All Good things is opinion as well, its not a fact. Of course its an opinion, we are debating our opinions on the show, your opinion is just as subjective as mine. But I think in terms of episodes of rankings more people would remember The best of Both worlds then any Borg episode from Voyager.

 

[Navaros]

who can be blamed for it not being up to par?

Berman and Braga primarily.

They destroyed Voyager's potential by flushing the premise down the toilet before the end of the first episode, and also by giving the characters no to little character development, and also no to little conflict, and also no overall story to the series.

With all those issues bogging Voyager down, there is no way it had any chance to be good without a change in showrunners, i.e. Berman and Braga, or the existing showrunners' attitudes, and a total revamp/reversal of the aforementioned terrible decisions that were implemented.

 

[exodus]

who can be blamed for it not being up to par?

Berman and Braga primarily.

They destroyed Voyager's potential by flushing the premise down the toilet before the end of the first episode, and also by giving the characters no to little character development, and also no to little conflict, and also no overall story to the series.

With all those issues bogging Voyager down, there is no way it had any chance to be good without a change in showrunners, i.e. Berman and Braga, or the existing showrunners' attitudes, and a total revamp/reversal of the aforementioned terrible decisions that were implemented.

B&B were still following orders from their bosses at Paramount.

It's not like they could do all of this on UPN's network without approval from those that write out their paychecks.

 

[Anwar]

who can be blamed for it not being up to par?

Berman and Braga primarily.

They destroyed Voyager's potential by flushing the premise down the toilet before the end of the first episode, and also by giving the characters no to little character development, and also no to little conflict, and also no overall story to the series.

With all those issues bogging Voyager down, there is no way it had any chance to be good without a change in showrunners, i.e. Berman and Braga, or the existing showrunners' attitudes, and a total revamp/reversal of the aforementioned terrible decisions that were implemented.

Do your homework, Braga had nothing to do with VOY's conception or initial execution he was just a writer then. It was Piller and Jeri Taylor who were in charge with Berman in the background.

It was Paramount who ordered the premise altered and the tensions dropped.

 

[Gary7]

I don't know... I think the show just ran its course. It had a lot of crappy episodes but certainly some good ones. And in truth, the clock was running down. They were getting closer and closer to the Alpha quadrant. Unless the next alien encounter had them catapulted somewhere else, like the Gamma quadrant or further deep into the Delta quadrant. The micro wormhole communication was an ingenious plot device. And although I wasn't very happy about the engagement with the Borg, because c'mon, a lone small starship running completely without help/restocking from Starfleet can take them on? The fabric of plausibility was stretched gossamer thin there.

Anyway, I felt the show ran it's course. I just wish ENT had the same opportunity.

 

[propita]

The suits at Paramount, who think they actually know something about Star Trek and pop culture and continually interfered with a good premise and fine cast, are to blame.

Anybody know the identities of these suits?

 

[exodus]

The suits at Paramount, who think they actually know something about Star Trek and pop culture and continually interfered with a good premise and fine cast, are to blame.

No suit at Paramount claimed to know any of that nor is it a requirement, that's what the executive producers & writers do.

Paramount is in charge of overseeing the entire franchise. So if they say they need Voyager to be more family friendly and less controversial to promote the Star Trek: Experience in Las Vegas or to boosts ratings, then the producers/writers have to jump and make it so.

Seriously folks, if you're going to place the blame on somebody at least take the time to learn who the correct people are. You can't blame others for not knowing something, if you can't take the time to know what they do as well. Think about it this way, would you wanna be blamed for something that wasn't your fault?

 

[Shatnertage]

^ Exodus makes a really good point.

When I see people heaping blame on the soulless corporate suits, I think it's mostly because the soulless corporate suits don't get invited to conventions to share their memories with fans. And it's those same suits who believed in the show enough to green light it and hire everyone involved.

 

[Misco]

I don't think VOY had that much difference in quality from TNG, maybe a few less stand out episodes, but overall they were similar. It's just that TNG brought Trek back after a long absence and aired in a vacuum for the most part and VOY aired as the fourth installment in a franchise when there was a lot more science fiction on television to compare it to. Obviously, the writing could have been better on VOY and if it had been we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Saxman1]

These are all very good points. I took out my original comments because, yes, the suits did green-light many years of Trek (TNG-ENT) and it's wonderful that we have them to enjoy. Upon further reflection, depending how you look at it, the suits really got in the way when Moonves took over at CBS, saying he hated Science Fiction and ENT. He insisted on killing ENT, even though it was pulling higher ratings than the highest rated show on the now SY FY channel. If you want to gang up on a suit, perhaps he's the one you can pummel. They managed to get a 4th season out of him to have more eps for syndication, but that was it. Others would say he's a hero for giving us a 4th season. It all depends on how you look at it, I guess.