Spoilers Who wore it better?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Amasov, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Location:
    Lost in the EU expanse with a nice cup of tea
    Give Peck a season with Mount and Romijn :adore:
     
    SolarisOne and Rainard Fox like this.
  2. Rasmussen

    Rasmussen Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Exactly. And thats why the comparison with Bond etc. doesnt really work. You have the same actors for 40 years (with minor exceptions to the rule). They are like historical figures. You can play them, but you cannot be them. At least not to me. The actors are what made the characters. It cant be replicated. Nimoy made Spock. The others are just imitations of that.

    Anyway, thats how I see it. Peck did a better job as Quinto had the looks, neither really nailed the role, imo. Both overplayed the character in their own way, which is normal, because they couldnt invent the character rather, they had to emulate the character.
     
    Longinus, SolarisOne and Rahul like this.
  3. Dales

    Dales Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    And here I was thinking peck was more one dimensional. Quinto I found more 3 dimensional thanks to the dynamic he had with kirk, uhura, mccoy and his mum. all these characters he had major interactions with showed a different side to his character. Quinto was more complicated and torn as a character.

    Peck's spock went from being resentful towards burnham to being her biggest cheerleader there was not much for him to do, reason I said Quinto had better material to work it which makes him more 3 dimensional.

    most characters in discovery are one dimesnioanl because the show focus too much on Burnham. peck's spock was no different after 2 episodes.
     
  4. Unimatrix Q

    Unimatrix Q Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    Peck's acting was superior imo, because it showed more emotional nuance, while Quinto's Spock basically knew only 4 modes: stoic, snarky, angry and loveydovey (with Uhura)
     
    Longinus likes this.
  5. Kelso

    Kelso Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    Location:
    On the destruct button until the last minute!
    Quinto bears more of a resemblance to Nimoy, but he's lacking the granite features and gravelly voice, which Peck does have.

    Somebody Tuvix them.
     
    Longinus and Phoenix219 like this.
  6. Dales

    Dales Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    Kindly Disagree, also the material counts for me. Kelvin movies have far better writing than Discovery. the last half of Season 2 discovery is one of the weakest trek I have seen if not the weakest.

    the part you called snarky, angry, stoic, loveydovey is the definition of a character that is three dimensional because that show a range of characterization he is able to display. it is the usual norm in general fiction.

    Peck's spock showed only one main emotion through out. Resentment. after he stopped been a little resentful, he was just another extra for Burnham to be more super awesome.

    Quinto was not an extra to anyone and could evoke emotions. the writing failed Peck like it did with even the main character (Burnham) so Peck never stood a chance.

    I think the only chance Peck will ever have of being better is if we get a spin off show of Pike and Spock.
     
    Kaelef likes this.
  7. seigezunt

    seigezunt Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Location:
    Raxacoricofallapatorius
    I find the divergence of opinion on this ... fascinating.
     
    lurok and Ovation like this.
  8. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Quinto for me.

    “Zachary made some choices that I thought were wonderful surprises to me, playing the Spock that he played in this film. We did not talk about specifics, like, ‘Do this,’ or ‘Don’t do that.’ We had very general conversations about the philosophy of the character, the psychology of the character, the philosophy of Star Trek, the fans’ reactions to various aspects of Star Trek. But, there were no specific instructions; there was no need for that, there was no call for that. But watching him in the film, I was very proud of what he did. I loved the idea that he is doing the character, that he did it so well. And I think we have book-ended the character; he has created a Spock that comes before the Spock that I portrayed in the series, and I’m playing a Spock [old Spock/Spock Prime] that comes much, much later and much more resolved, and is, I think, much closer to who I actually am today. I think it works extremely well, and I admire his talent." - Leonard Nimoy

    Zach feels Spock to me because while different, he still embodies some things that make Spock 'Spock' to me such as the cadence, mannerism, the humor, the sass, the bemusement at people, the way he can simultaneously master Nimoy's bitch face (shame many don't seem to remember that) but then still make you see he's a good, genuinely good, man. Just the movement of his eyes conveys so much in a subtle yet very effective way. He cultivates an inner life.
    I think the writing also blessed him with moments and brilliant sassy or dorky quotes that help him be 'Spock' and never cease to make me laugh.
    I find him authentic. All the feelings he expresses, the way he talks and moves, it feels like I'm watching a person who is really like that.

    I think Peck's version is new and more fresh in people's minds than Quinto but I, frankly, find new Spock is, ironically, more similar to kelvin Spock than Nimoy's version anyway. So to see Discovery fans try to bring Quinto down to pimp Peck is kind of funny and, in many ways, quite pointless.
    Even the casting echoes Quinto, or are we going to still pretend they wanted a clone of Nimoy, and Peck wasn't chosen because he has the hot factor of Quinto? The show's runner is one of the guys who wrote kelvin trek, just saying.
    Do you serioustly believe they really wanted their Spock to be the same character Nimoy played? I love original Spock but no one wants new trek to be like a show written in the 60s. That should be obvious watching this show, fan service withstanding.

    “Mine is a very different Spock than your dad’s. I was really fortunate to be able to explore even more than your dad, because as entertainment evolved, as narration evolved, as story-telling evolved over the intervening decades between when he created the role and when I assumed it, I think that it opened up a little bit more space for us to get in and play with that. Sharing that with him, and discussing it, and exploring it through the context of our personal relationship, that was probably one of the most creatively satisfying aspects of assuming a role that had already been established so firmly and created so boldly. No pun intended.
    I thought that (Spock and Uhura relationship) was a perfect example of the evolution of the character, of painting him in a different light and seeing that there is this capacity for feeling, for emotion, for intimacy, for connection even if it’s still regulated, it’s still within the boundaries or the parameters of what it means to be Vulcan.”

    - Zachary Quinto interviewed by Adam Nimoy (from: “FOR THE LOVE OF SPOCK” documentary about Nimoy)​


    Both Spocks indisputably are more contemporary characters who have a similar character arc (will elaborate on that later), but given that Discovery Spock is supposed to be a prequel of Nimoy's Spock, I certaintly find it interesting that people complain that Quinto is a different Spock but then make up excuses to justify Peck's Spock essentially being his own human/vulcan character no less (does he necessarily need to be called Spock?) Why is Quinto less allowed to play a different Spock? In the first movie, he plays a Spock who is the same age of the one in Discovery too so the excuses you use for Peck can be used for Quinto's version too, no doubt further helped by the fact he literally is part of another reality anyway.
    Tl dr of what I read some people say: Quinto is bad because he imitates Nimoy bht is different while Peck is better because he imitates Nimoy but is different. Am I right? Lol

    key points of the similarities between the two:
    1) Peck's character shows us a different and 'new' Spock by, basically, being a more emotional (at times morose/angry) Spock who embraces his human side more (regardless his delusion of otherwise, btw). However, this is the same exact thing Quinto did before him, the same acting tricks if you will, so it is nothing new and nothing that should warrant Peck any special award.
    2) Discovery Spock is given, more or less, the same character arc kelvin Spock got in the first movie where the resolution essentially is him realizing that 'it's ok to feel' and he can reconcile his human/vulcan heritage and accept it, find a balance. He shouldn't, now, pretend he is just vulcan because it's pointless.
    Discovery Spock has his sister's advice to follow too, which echoes the words of Sarek and Spock prime to kelvin Spock in the first movie.

    However, I have to note that while this arc made sense for kelvin Spock - who is alternate reality Spock anyway so he doesn't have to evolve into the Spock you see in the series - it makes little sense for Peck's version, IMO.
    Why? Simply put: the Spock you see in tos isn't there YET.
    Original Spock had issues such as the fact he denied his feelings and tried to be more vulcan than vulcans. There is this ongoing conflict he has that is resolved only much later.
    In fact, a key difference between kelvin Spock and tos Spock is precisely the fact that the first is allowed to understand some things before his hair becomes gray and he has his emotional development accelerated to the Spock Nimoy played in the movies, basically (I have a feeling many only remember that Spock now). An emotional development that happens faster because of different circumstances kelvin Spock is in.

    Tl dr: When I watch Nimoy's character in tos, he doesn't seem to be the most natural or expected evolution of the Spock you see in Discovery (and the kelvin movies). It seems an involution of sorts to me. This, of course, unless you are too busy buying the myth that tos Spock was a more resolved character and thus completely erase what is, well, the largest part of his character development through the series. This is something I noticed many do.
    The idea that the original character is a better man with a better life just because he is the original is a very naive way to look at the character and very limited too. Not even Nimoy thought that. In fact, he believed the most resolved Spock was the one he played in st2009 not the one he played in tos. That one was troubled and incomplete.

    Further elaborating, there is a big key difference between the two new Spocks though.
    The Spock played by Peck is mainly just Michael's little brother, so he's defined by that and is mainly there to serve her plot (as it is supposed to because it shouldn't be the Spock show! )
    The one played by Quinto is, on the other hand, the co-lead of the movies so he can access to elements of the narrative that discovery Spock isn't allowed to access to. Quinto's version had different dynamics too, he isn't just Kirk's friend. He may have the (strong, consistent) influence of his human mother and then his human girlfriend and his friends encouraging him to embrace his feelings, but no one gets credit for his identity and character development but himself and his own feelings, accomplishments and the personality traits he was simply born with.
    Quinto being a more a multidimensional lead character was his purpose. He is the core of those movies (where you incidentally get two Spock).

    The lines between human and vulcan are deliberately blurry in Quinto's version and his dual heritage isn't treated like a personality disorder the way Discovery did, IMO.
    The idea that Spock can decide to shut down one side of himself, or he needs someone to tech him human when he IS human too, is silly to me.
    I also like that the kelvin movies made a point to explicitly state that vulcans DO have feelings even more than the humans so this whole 'I'm going to reject my feelings so I'm just vulcan' is pure, useless, delusion.
    A sister or anyone has no blame nor responsibility for who he, ultimately, IS. Simply put, Kelvin Spock doesn't need anyone to 'save' him from his mixed heritage because the problem isn't him being a child of two worls, it's those two worlds that need to accept that and respect that, allow him to be that without prejudice, delusions and lies.

    I have to also note that Quinto's Spock ironically ends up being the only Spock, now, whose childhood story aligns with that of the original writers.
    Kurtzman more or less claims that Spock needs to have a sister to be Spock (and yet, he wrote kelvin trek that contradicts it lol!) while Dc Fontana thought the opposite.
    The key difference between them perhaps is the fact that Kurtzman, like many fans, wrongly perceives tos Spock as a more resolved and complete character who finds a balance between his human and vulcan sides, while Fontana, Roddenberry and Nimoy saw tos Spock as a flawed guy who hasn't found a balance yet. Dc Fontana wanted to explain why Spock was so closed off and denied his human side at first, and him being the only child of Sarek was important to her because it emphasized his condition as a lonely kid who only had his mother for human reference and inspiration.
    Dc Fontana also imagined that something traumatic maybe happened to Spock to make him decide he needed to reject feelings.
    Ironically, discovery seemed to want to do that at first but they did a 180° turn in the finale.
    I mean, Discovery Spock starts as someone who is resentful towards Michael and it's funny because the creative team stressed the fact they wanted to give a canon reason why Spock never mentioned his sister, but they didn't need that lame reason they pulled in the end IMO. They already gave us a convincing explanation when they established that Spock and his sister were estranged, so he wouldn't mention her because of that (aside from the fact he never talked about his family anyway). They also made her the reason why he wanted to be more vulcan than vulcans and this makes perfect sense with the Spock we see in tos and aligns with Dc Fontana idea that something happened to him, a trauma, that made him want to be only vulcan.
    However, as they wanted Spock to make up with his sister asap, before she left his reality, they went too far with it because in the end, the previous narrative is contradicted in spite of making more sense for a prequel of the Spock we know in tos. Now it seems Nimoy's Spock forgot everything and went backwards to have issues that the Spock at the end of this season gives illusion he should've resolved or he should resolve before he meets kirk&Co.

    So I'm back to when Discovery didn't exist. They now need to explain me, again, why tos Spock ultimately lost the balance that he supposedly found in this series, again, and has an involution.
    In the end, I don't find this series really adds to my opinion of Spock as I'm not able to retcon my perception of him and his story to add new informations that don't seem to truly connect this guy to the Spock played by Nimoy. They don't seem so necessary that Nimoy's Spock cannot make sense without Discovery.
    The creative team seems to have this presumption we absolutely needed their work to finally understand Spock, but I'm not sure it's the case or it, rather, is the delusion of those who retcon old things to fit their own narrative.

    For all intents and purposes, Peck's version is as much a different reality Spock as kelvin Spock is. I don't imagine either version ending up like the character played by Nimoy.

    I feel like some maybe prefer Discovery because this Spock somehow feels more safe to them when you are told he is the same Spock you see in tos, or his younger version anyway.
    He's temporary, like you know his story is written so it doesn't matter how 'ooc' he might be now you know where he ends up. You have this prime timeline influence (or let's call it illusion). On the other hand, some seem to need Quinto's version to be more like Nimoy's Spock than Peck's in spite of Quinto being the one who is playing a different Spock. They need Quinto to 'reassure' them, placate them, more and prove his worth as Spock more because there is the prejudice of 'alternate reality' on him.

    If Quinto were playing a Spock from the prime timeline, he'd probably get more credit by some in the aspects that make him a great torch bearer of the character.
    A lot of old fans don't accept change and Quinto's Spock is too unpredictable to them because his future, hence his Spock, isn't written yet. He doesn't have to become the Spock you see in tos, his life doesn't have to be the same.

    The very thing that makes Kelvin Spock so great to many of us is the same thing that makes him very annoying to other fans.


    Ps: sorry not sorry for my long post. I'm a Spock fan in all incarnations so I'm unable to participate to this thread and give you a honest answer without motivating my opinions, thus provide the reasons that make me agree or disagree with some here.
    And I just love Spock. ;)
     
  9. Cake

    Cake Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    My vote goes to Quinto Spock. I blame those massive sideburns of Peck Spock. It kind of ruins the whole look for me.
     
  10. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Spock’s “reversion” in the “prime” timeline may well be caused by an as yet unknown traumatic experience between 2257 and 2265. Perhaps the time spent with Leila Kolani was emotionally devastating in its ending and he chose to suppress his human side in the absence of his sister as a sounding board, as he’d not yet bonded with her replacement (Kirk). Character development (as well as real life personal development) need not be linear.
     
    Phoenix219 likes this.
  11. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    At least you admit that he has a reversion between discovery and tos. It seems few even notice that.
    A lot of people, creative team included, seem to believe this Spock is the spontaneous, authentic, direct prequel of the Spock you see in tos.
    But this dude is Kelvin Spock version 2.

    Honestly, I never got the feeling the thing with Leila was a failed relationship that left Spock devastated to the extent of changing him. Never got the feeling she broke his heart, more the other way around.

    Leila was functional to the tos cliché that Spock couldn't fall in love just because he's alien. That he needed to be compromised by spores etc to love like even vulcans DO.
    In that context, Leila, like Chapel, serves the role of the human woman who wants to save Spock from his alieneness.

    The fact he's mixed is developed as this condition where it seems there are two separate Spocks battling for control and he needs to chose only one of those guys. Nowadays, this is a very outdated and out of touch way to develop characters like Spock.

    Spock would be able to fall in love and have relationships regardless him being human or vulcan as these are aspects that are part of both species, anyway.
    Kelvin Spock helps supporting this, IMO, rather realistic assumption about him as it shows who Spock is if you remove that silly delusion that it's unvulcan for him to love (which is contradictory even in tos btw because friendships require him to have feelings too so demonizing only romantic love seems hypocritical). That Spock doesn't have a human sister but he certaintly is still able to embrace his human side and feelings. He still becomes friends to kirk&Co and he falls in love.
    Kelvin Uhura is proof that if Spock is in love, he will try to have a relationship (it's more logical than pretending you don't have romantic feelings, anyway) . He will. He CAN.
    Perhaps, if the same didn't happen to tos Spock at the time it isn't because he's alien, he just didn't reciprocate Leila and Chapel feelings.

    It isn't unvulcan for him to love. His father married a human because he loved her, you see other vulcans too perfectly able to have relationships. Yet, according to some fans, Spock is the one vulcan who must be a monk.


    Tl dr: 'Spock needs to get saved by the humans'
    Or more like, let's use Spock to make the current show's protagonist important (tm)

    I'm a weird fan I guess because I don't overemphasize the kirk/spock dynamic like most seem to do.
    Everytime people talk about Spock as a character, one way or another the subtext of it all boils down to the importance of the Kirk.
    Even discovery couldn't help but put a nod to Kirk in the end (though, I'd like to remind Kurtzman that Spock's opposite was Mccoy, in tos)
    Poor Spock, if it weren't for Michael and then Kirk he'd stop to function.

    One problematic thing about kirk/spock is that on the surface, it seems him and Mccoy inspired Spock to be more human and challenged him. The truth? They just gave him a pretext to further play the 'vulcan' among humans.
    Proof is in the pudding that in the first movie you'll still see that Spock left Kirk&co without saying a word to go back to vulcan and, quite literally, get rid of his feelings so he could finally be a 'proper vulcan'.
    I can't pretend Kirk was Spock's lord and savior. They were friends, but Spock is his own person and can function without him. He needs to get his shit together just everyone.

    Absolutely. However, this doesn't seem to fit with Discovery Spock.
    Tos Spock was just too on denial about his human side and, most importantly, he didn't have some informations about his vulcan side either. He didn't know things that, I feel, Discovery (and kelvin) Spock knows. So it doesn't make sense for him to unlearn them.
    This isn't just about him having non-linear character development, it's the very foundation of his conflict that Discovery kind of invalidates in the end or makes redundant in a way that it seems like Spock will simply regress and forget in tos. I don't see this character naturally evolving into the guy Nimoy played. I don't see character integrity in that.

    And again, it was unnecessary anyway. You wouldn't even need to speculate about yet unknown traumatic experience between 2257 and 2265 that justify his regression.
    Discovery provided, at first , a good explanation of the 'why Spock didn't mention Michael' (because they were estranged since they were kids) and 'why Spock wanted to be more vulcan than vulcans' (because his human step sister was responsible - however good her intentions were and the fact she was a kid too - for creating yet another trauma for a kid that was already fragile)
    [It even made sense with kelvin Spock because you could explain that in his reality, maybe he didn't have a sister who broke his heart and made him want to reject feelings. Add to that the fact that kelvin Spock's momma was his human inspiration]

    But then, Discovery did a 180° on him in the end with that speech that seems quite contradictory with what he had said before about Michael and the fact she had made him lose his balance and, well, they had started being civil to each other only 5 minutes ago.
    It reminds me of stid where suddenly Spock must be Kirk's best friend forever when they barely tolerated each other. Writers need to understand that conflict is great but you cannot have the cake and eat it too.

    However, this is the risk of nowadays writers making a prequel of old things.
    It isn't just the technology and the way ships look in this show that is different. People need to understand that something made nowadays cannot make sense with something made in the 60s. It cannot fit either.
    Pike too, bless him, try to reconcile this version with the guy who made that sexist comment about women on the bridge in the original. Again, this isn't a matter of character development not being linear. .you are talking about characters written in different eras.

    Quinto was right when he said he is allowed to do things and chart a territory with his Spock that Nimoy wasn't allowed to in tos. He can explore layers that Nimoy couldn't explore in his time. Quite frankly, I think it's part of the reason why the latter was so happy about kelvin Spock and he would probably say nothing against Peck version either, even if, again, it's once again a Spock that can only make sense as a version from a different universe rather than ostensibly trying to make sense with tos.
     
  12. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    In real life, all of what you say about both successors of Nimoy makes sense. I was merely looking for a way to make sense of the official “prime universe” story through line as an exercise. I have no particular affinity for continuity as a straitjacket. The example I chose (Leila) was clearly not intended as a traumatic moment for Spock back then but a reinterpretation of the relationship in light of the regression of Spock’s emotional balance seemed a reasonable one. As for whether Spock needs either Michael or Kirk, the fact is they are presented in a way that suggests, at the very least, they are vital elements in his life, albeit at different times—much as family and friends often play a crucial role in maintaining a healthy emotional balance in life. Moreover, in both DSC and TOS, Spock is a supporting character so his presence as a factor in service of the primary characters is neither surprising nor problematic.