That was the whole point of TOS Spock, dragging him back into being a human being.
Well they didn’t succeed thank space! It took until the movies before that rot started to set in. Or as McCoy said in STV, I liked him better before he died!
That's the way it was written. He had several infatuations, whether you want to blame them on spores or other breakdowns to his Vulcan control the stories were about the breakdown of that control.
I don’t think they had any intention of making him more human at that time, though. And the only way it’s interesting or even shocking, when he "goes off the rails" is by virtue of the contrast with his "normal" self.
The appeal of the character over the decades was that underneath the logical exterior he had needs.
As mentioned, I have to disagree. Everyone has needs, what’s important is the normal logical exterior. That’s what makes it science fiction.
Even Kirk said, "of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, his was the most... human."
Yes and thank space he wasn’t alive to hear it!
And with all that he will ALWAYS be different than a "production model human being".
But not iconic or even particularly interesting. Even in STIV and V there are times when he seems more like Mork from Ork whose main problem was understanding human culture. Granted you are probably not going to be quite the same with you come back from the dead but still.
It makes sense too that a younger Spock would be less rigid about such matters.
Darn it, I was hoping there would be something I could agree with you about. But as I have previously suggested, he seemed pretty "logical" as a child in ST09, even if less so than Prime Spock. In nuTrek he is not that long out of "indoctrination", if you want to see it like that, so to me he is probably at his most "Vulcany". What would be the point of most young Vulcans being less rigid and what would change their minds? Social pressure? But if you come out of school not practicing the necessary discipline, how is that going to work? No, I can see it wearing of slowly with exposure to humans, maybe.
But what could possibly have caused him to become more Vulcan on his own, assuming such is possible? His father "disowns" him and he decides to get even by adopting the very cultural traits his father (in the Prime Universe anyway) supposedly believes in? It doesn’t make sense. Sure, he might abruptly adopt logic and Vulcan ways as a defence against supposed human prejudice. However he would do it almost at once, and then slowly unwind. What else is going to cause him to slowly get more Vulcan and then, twenty years later, reverse the process? In the prime universe he failed his Bar exam or something and then died, but that hasn’t happened (yet).
I think they would be silly to turn him into old Prime Spock though I think it could go either way at this point.
I mean, it could be that in the next movie the reason the Enterprise is late leaving orbit will be because nuSpock’s therapist was double booked!
That's very true, and it was true with TOS as well. In TOS different choices could have been made--heck,
would have been made in some cases if it had not been for the times...
This is an alternate reality, so everything's not going to be the same.
You seem to have missed my point.
Malaika was implying that the lack of interaction in ST09 was evidence of the "impossibility" of a relationship between Scotty and Uhura. I was just pointing out that the character's actions aren't their own. That has nothing to do with alt realities or choices made in TOS.
However to address your comment, on balance we can all be truely grateful Star Trek wasn't created three years ago, whether we know it or not. But don't worry. I'm grateful enough for both of us.
She just seems more like she'd get along with Spock, though. Of course, this is coming down to preferences, just like you not preferring the couple, but they seemed to be built for each other, and reading what Nichelle said, that impression is not an accident. The reboot team merely built on that.
Well my main points are 1) It wasn’t necessary. 2) It wasn’t necessary, and 3) if you want to do it anyway, it shouldn’t interfere with what
is necessary.
Re BobOrci’s comments on Uhura’s status I’m not much interested in big 3, 4 or whatever. If Uhura is going to get more screen time I would have preferred it to be more productive. I was referring to BobOrci’s knee-jerk reaction, not your comment, which I thought was on the money originally.
I think the "more" is building up for her. They made her a xenolinguistics specialist instead of just a comm officer. That implies (to me) that she'll have more to do when their 5 year mission starts.
Perhaps, but she didn’t get to demonstrate her xenolinguistics skills in the last movie
The moral center of the film, if I had to pick just one thing, would be the scene where Kirk offers Nero help, even though this man tried to destroy his world and did destroy another, and even though this man is the reason why he doesn't have a father, because it's the right thing to do.
I might agree if I though for a second the character or the writers had been sincere in that offer.
Ah, "those who do" have TOS. And even then, I don't think Spock was that one dimensional. If he had truly been completely "detached," then where did his friendship and emotional ties with Kirk and Bones come from? Had he really been the way I've heard him described, the character would have been as dull as cardboard and as forgettable as having a plain bagel for breakfast three weeks ago.
I explicitly used the term "
semi detached" to avoid just such objections.
There was always something underneath. That was what made him interesting. And that's what I'm glad to see it looks like they're exploring with him.
That’s the problem. What today’s instant gratification culture fails to appreciate is there is no "underneath" if there is nothing "on top". A point I dealt with above so be careful what you wish for because exploring Spock is likely to destroy him. At least in terms of being unique and iconic. Or put another way: Quality and subtlety is once again being put to the sword by crude popularist hedonism.
"Someone" didn't do it; it was a collaborative effort (Roddenberry, writers, producers, and Mr. Nimoy himself).
Obviously I was using he royal "someone" here, but I suspect the guidelines were Roddenberry’s.
"Compromised" is such an interesting word here. What's the compromise? Showing a little of what he's capable of emotionally with someone that isn't Kirk or McCoy?
"Compromised" here means degraded in terms of what is important about him as a character. If Spock had been able to have a relationship with a woman in the 60 (under normal circumstances) he wouldn’t have been Spock in my view. Already nuSpock isn’t Spock and the only interesting thing is whether they will try to move him closer again, or further away.
joining Ufo and Bry_Sinclair replies to answer (since they pretty much said the same things):
No disrespect to
Bry_Sinclair but I believe the reasons for our similar view-points never-the-less differ in some ways. For example I have no problem with the lack of history between Uhura and Spock even though in this reality there actually isn’t any onscreen.
The Uhura/Scotty thing certainty WAS a big "What the hell’s going on here! That makes no sense what-so-ever" for me and many other fans that thought the same thing for pretty much the same reasons you're now using against ST09.
Spock/Uhura became very popular after ST09, I can't say the same about Uhura/Scotty after TFF
Well STV blazed the trail for any such relationships (and probably took most of the flak for that) as previous trek has done so often for ST09. Even blowing up Vulcan wasn’t their own idea. And how could the reasons be the same when Scotty/Uhura were pretty close to equals and Scotty had a definite history of going out with women?
And I see what you're trying to do with the comment about Uhura flirting with Spock as her being just playful, it just adds even more double standard in the whole Spock/Uhura vs Uhura/Scotty argument: She still had, in text, flirting scenes with SPOCK, unlike Scotty. So she showed, to some degree, an interest in him (he also did teach her how to play the vulcan lyre and he complimented her).
How do my comments add to any unspecified "double standard". I was just proposing an alternative explanation for what we saw. Conversely we can’t be certain she never did anything similar with Scotty (when the cameras weren’t rolling). Given the Scotty relationship was a decade or two down the track and people do change, it was entirely believable anyway. Your complain at the time was probably more to the fact of the relationship rather than its provenance and now you are just rationalising the Spock/Uhura thing because you are emotionally convinced of its "rightness". Why do I say that? Well to use your own words in post 119: "But the thing is: this is not TOS. It's alternative reality, it's the story from the start whatever happened in TOS it doesn't count here, it didn't happen to
these characters.". Er, I hope I didn’t take that out of context.
Unlike you I am not basing my assumptions on past history, prime or alternative. What
we know, only makes it less shocking to
us, not the characters. The first scene in STV between them is the only one I remembered and it made it more than clear to me something was now going on. Once I got used the fact that
any of the main characters might be having such a relationship, I was fine with it. And we already know at least part of the real reason you objected to it. The reason you continue to do so I'm guessing.
Was the same ever said about Uhura/Scotty? Let me think about it... NO! They're invented by Star trek V only and that's all. And yet you find it believable that they'd suddenly develop a romantic interest in each other (in the prime universe and the circumstances of the prime universe) all the while you don't find it believable that the same could have happened between Spock and Uhura or that they could fall in love under the difference circumstances of the alternative universe where they're in.
First, as mentioned, it was only "sudden" from our point of view. It seems you were suffering from shock (of more than one type), not implausibility. It could have easily progress over years of "prime time", to coin a phrase, before STV. It just didn’t show up on screen before that. And second: Of course not. Spock wasn’t presented as that sort of character, Scotty was and I have explained why I think it is a bad idea for Spock. Where is the double standard here? I’m not seeing it. The fact I am happy for Uhura to have a relationship with anyone
who is actually available, argues against any sort of prejudice surely. The Scotty thing wasn’t developed (except badly, though it had a good start) and probably never caught on for that reason.
It seem to me your talk of hypocrisy and double standards are just unsupported rhetoric in the service of what you happen to personally like and is only necessary because the actual situation doesn’t make much sense. I believe I have had time to get over my shock re Scotty/Uhura because there is no real reason it couldn’t have happened, unlike Spock/Uhura.
ST09 spent a fair bit of time bashing and degrading Spock. I see this relationship as more of the same purely in the interests of popularism. In an ironic twist, it is really not Spock’s emotions that are the main problem here, but those of the audience.
Further, the impression of a "love interest" thing seems to me to be a by-product of the blatant attempt by the film maker’s to manipulate the audience, largely successfully it seems, and the power imbalance in the relationship. I don’t see either of those reasons as any sort of double standard. Perhaps you could explain your case? Note how this differs from Scotty/Uhura where their situation was a rather confused business in the end as was whether Sybok really had any hold over his followers other than enormous gratitude
That's not what the scene was about IMO. I see a woman who had earned her place on the enterprise and didn't want her relationship with Spock to influence her job.
Spock just happened to be the person assigning her to a duty station and then just happened to have the power to countermand himself? In reality someone else would have been doing that. And worse, Uhura again displays her poor attitude which is why some use the "B" word to describe her. Saying what’s on your mind or sticking up for yourself is not an excuse for being nasty or having bad manners, whatever current pop song writers may think IMO.
If Spock was in charge of assignments he should have excused himself. Uhura should never have questioned the decision in any event. She might have been assigned to another ship because it needed her skills the most. I never saw those assignments as permanent anyway, given they were still cadets and should have gone back to the academy after the dust settled.
You make some strange arguments about Kirk that are supposed to show that mythical double standard but Kirk never demanded or imposed upon Bones to help him get on board and I am against Kirk’s cheating. Further, you won't here me support the position Kirk ended up in.
because Spock choking Kirk to death or acting as a jerk for the most part of the movie is not too emotional. Very vulcan indeed.
I think the problem is he will be emotional on a regular basis, not just in unavoidable circumstances. I.E. he will no longer be Spock. By the way, I don’t blame Uhura for anything. Its just if you are going to reboot TOS you should include the most important parts of it in, my view. Not dump them for modern expediency.
I also think that the real problem here is SPOCK not Uhura. The actual problem is the fact that Spock does have a girlfriend and some people don't like it because of reasons.
I wouldn’t say "nothing". She doesn’t come across any better than Kirk, but as I have intimated, Spock is the main problem, yes.
Furthermore, if people claim to have absolutely no issues with Uhura being paired up with any other character but Spock, this argument invalidates itself and makes absolutely no sense.
I beleive it does, as described above. Of course you dismissed some of those concerns, sighting the long established concept of: "yadda yadda yadda".
I have to say though, that if I didn’t "love" this movie beyond all possible reason and argument, one or two of the negative points you raised would have really shaken my view of it.
So thanks for that, very enlightening. I am not a fan of Pantheist Star Trek either.
And please don't say she's not being villainized; she is. It's like Malaika said about the last couple to few pages of this thread. So many things have been said that I've read elsewhere, and if we keep going I'll hear them all here eventually.
Personally I dislike nuUhura and nuKirk equally and for how they behave, not who they are with. I wonder where that leaves your theories?
And please, I’m 30 years old, by no means a "boy".
I am aware of 50 year old women who refer to themselves as "girls" for whatever that’s worth?
When did he touch her breasts? That’s a scene I cannot remember.
It wasn’t deliberate. His mistake was smirking about it afterwards. Uhura was nice about it though. She threw him back into the fight!
*** Edit: Great post by the way.
of course Spock can't love Uhura, he's a vulcan, he can't show emotions ... BUT, of course, if the couple is Kirk/Spock then we do want a romance!
Not me, yuck!
(and I say that as a supporter of gay marriage.
)
