Yeah, but NO culture actually survives indefinitely so how we're defining that gets into quirky issues about what qualifies as successful.
Spoilers Who is sympathetic to the Klingons?
- Thread starter Charles Phipps
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Yeah, but NO culture actually survives indefinitely so how we're defining that gets into quirky issues about what qualifies as successful.
I'm not particularly sure there really is such a thing as a "warrior culture" if I've understood the usage of the term correctly. There are cultures we view through the lens of popular history as being characterised by warriors, but surely no culture can possibly make much of an impact without a more pragmatic balance?
Speaking as a former college history teacher, all cultures tend to be subcultures to a certain extent as they exist in a greater balance. Generally, though, warrior cultures are almost always at the top of a society or top adjacent for what I assume is obvious reasons and often do create their own culture within a culture at worst. Hereditary military classes are so common, though, that they are something you can never say isn't a natural part of human society. They depend, obviously, on other castes to survive but an interesting fact is the Klingons constantly and pardon my Kling but "pissing and moaning" about how things were always better in the old days when men were men and peasants were peasants also reflects how many of these cultures eventually developed.
I always wanted the honor-obsessed culture of TNG to be a natural outgrowth of peace as like the samurai, you don't actually think about honor and status all that much when you're murdering each other. You only have time to do that when you're not in the chaos of war.
So I don't disagree with you so much as think you're looking at the glass as half-empty versus full.
True. The problem is that it is probably way too hard to write about a "warrior culture" and include all the other levels that support the warriors. Writers like writing the heavy breathing Klingon warriors harping about "honor". They don't want to write 20 pages of dialogue about Klingon merchants, scientists, or laborers. For one those things sound way to conventional to many science fiction writers.
Even most Star Trek novel writers with plenty of time and space to do so way over focus on the warriors.
For one thing that most fans have long forgotten is this:
What we call "Klingon warrior culture" didn't start out with the Klingons at all. Much of the stuff later attributed to the Klingons was in fact first rolled out as part of the Terran Empire in "Mirror, Mirror". So elements of the Klingon warrior culture were actually taken from what was supposed to be a "mirror image" human culture where everyone was basically "evil" by the norms of the universe with the Federation.
I always liked to imagine Kang and Kodos rolling their eyes whenever everyone brought up HONOR and GLORY.
Indeed. It is worth noting that as far as we could tell, the Klingon occupation of Organia in Errand of Mercy wasn't all that ruthless. They didn't carry out any executions (at least what they thought were executions) until Kirk and Spock escaped presumably (and truthfully) with the help of the Organians.
![22045924_10156223639130400_1358543843250610175_n[1].jpg](https://www.trekbbs.com/data/attachments/2/2453-07f2ec4a8601084c69831facee4d1622.jpg "22045924_10156223639130400_1358543843250610175_n[1].jpg")
Am I sympathetic to TOS Klingons? Not really. The ones we saw were dicks.
Am I sympathetic to the Movie Era Klingons? No. They were dicks too, except for Maltz.
Am I sympathetic to TNG era Klingons? Not really. I like Worf, of course, and Martok, but the rest? Dicks. And I think they got off way too easy for their numerous war crimes during the short Federation/Klingon war in DS9. Remember that poor decapitated Bolian?
Am I sympathetic to Discovery Klingons? I don't know. I can't understand what they're saying.
Am I sympathetic to the Movie Era Klingons? No. They were dicks too, except for Maltz.
Am I sympathetic to TNG era Klingons? Not really. I like Worf, of course, and Martok, but the rest? Dicks. And I think they got off way too easy for their numerous war crimes during the short Federation/Klingon war in DS9. Remember that poor decapitated Bolian?
Am I sympathetic to Discovery Klingons? I don't know. I can't understand what they're saying.
That bothered me a lot. A Klingon being honored for his warrior skills is shown bragging about cutting the head off the Tellarite helmsman (smugly dismissing him as a sniveling pig) and then killing the Bolian captain.
Oh yeah, the Tellarite got beheaded. But yes. That scene always bothered me. I think DS9 should have cast the Klingons more in the role of the Soviet Union during World War II--allies to the Federation/Western Allies, but not friends. Missed opportunity there.
Klingons started off as Soviet analogues anyway. In Discovery I'm not sure what they are. Japanese samurai culture analogues? I don't mean offense by that, just not sure what they're going for yet.
My take was they were jihadists since T'Kuvma is all about, "We should gather together under Kahless to restore the Caliphate and destroy the decadent Westerners." Mind you, some people think they're Trumpers despite the fact it was proposed as a setting over five years ago.
I'm not sympathetic to the Klingons in Discovery.
They're boring, Blah blah blah, honour blah blah blah. Get on with it.
The Federation has done nothing to warrant their attacks, unless we find out something in the next couple of episodes.
They're boring, Blah blah blah, honour blah blah blah. Get on with it.
The Federation has done nothing to warrant their attacks, unless we find out something in the next couple of episodes.
Mind you, in real life, if you form a NATO-esque alliance on someone's boarders, you should be CONFUSED when people are upset.
I'd take ten of Gowron's blabfests over one of T'Kumquat's. I never thought I'd come across such a long-winded Klingon. If the Federation's intent was to get him to shut the hell up, it's worth a war.
Gowron's eyes alone make him worth listening to. Now there was a warrior worthy of story and song.
Gowron's crazy eyes made him the ultimate Klingon in my book. Compelling and scary all in one bat'leth slinging package.
And I'll bet you can understand the one on the left when he speaks.
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