Spoilers Who is sympathetic to the Klingons?

[Arpy]

Mind you, the Federation claims to come in peace but in this timeline has just finished a massive war with the Romulans and the Xindi (I feel so bad I thought so little of them I couldn't even remember their name and had to look them up). Its an expanionist hegomonic empire--it's just hegomonic empires spread via bread and circuses not lasers.

That's actually one of the biggest RL criticisms of Roddenberry's view in that he did have a very homogenized view of the future for a man who wanted to make a government celebrating diversity.

This is completely wrong. The Romulans and Xindi started wars with the Federation, not the other way around. This is similar to victim blaming here, like when they spit on women in some countries for being raped.

Expansionist and hegemonic conjures thoughts of the Klingons and the Borg, but the Federation are neither -- Eddington can bite me. Honestly, I think we look for "interesting" scenarios to play for the fun of it, divorced from reality.

Homogeneity I think is a bit of a problem, but that's with Trek overall. Thankfully, DSC is taking on Klingon homogeneity, and looking at some of the initial douche-iness of some of the Starfleeters, I think there may be changes there too. That said, the Federation is a melting-pot in the best sense -- the best aspects of memberworlds mix with the whole and everyone's effected. Still you have emotionless Vulcans and argumentative Tellarites, but they're not so much of either that they can't mesh with each other.

EDIT: I don't know that we knew T'Kuvma enough to judge him fully, but we knew enough to act on. Did he really think the Feds meant the end of his people, or was that spin to sow incite war? Either way, there are healthier ways to compete and grow, Canjo, for Klingons as well. He acted badly for his people, and against others who he should have gotten to know better.

 

[Charles Phipps]

This is completely wrong. The Romulans and Xindi started wars with the Federation, not the other way around. This is similar to victim blaming here, like when they spit on women in some countries for being raped.

I'm referring to the fact the Federation trashed these powerful empires or at least fought them to an end. Not who was "good" or "evil" in these things. I remind you by the time of Balance of Terror, the Federation and Klingons both didn't care about who was responsible as much as after each other.

Expansionist and hegemonic conjures thoughts of the Klingons and the Borg, but the Federation are neither -- Eddington can bite me. Honestly, I think we look for "interesting" scenarios to play for the fun of it, divorced from reality.

Eh, Klingons expand their empire with the sword. The Federation expands with offers of technological as well as material prosperity--I'm not saying they're the same, just saying both are expansionist powers.

Homogeneity I think is a bit of a problem, but that's with Trek overall. Thankfully, DSC is taking on Klingon homogeneity, and looking at some of the initial douche-iness of some of the Starfleeters, I think there may be changes there too. That said, the Federation is a melting-pot in the best sense -- the best aspects of memberworlds mix with the whole and everyone's effected. Still you have emotionless Vulcans and argumentative Tellarites, but they're not so much of either that they can't mesh with each other.

Honestly, I was impressed they finally included the four founding powers of the Federation into canon on screen with T'kuvma's speech.

EDIT: I don't know that we knew T'Kuvma enough to judge him fully, but we knew enough to act on. Did he really think the Feds meant the end of his people, or was that spin to sow incite war? Either way, there are healthier ways to compete and grow, Canjo, for Klingons as well. He acted badly for his people, and against others who he should have gotten to know better.

I think T'Kuvma was 100% a believer in his philosophy unlike later Klingon leaders ala Gowron or Duras. The question seems to be how he made the leap from, "Uniting us against the Federation would keep us from killing each other" to "The Federation wants to destroy us."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Klingons expand their empire with the sword. The Federation expands with offers of technological as well as material prosperity--I'm not saying they're the same, just saying both are expansionist powers.

The difference is, the Federation is entitled to expand in that way. They have the right to make their case, as it were.

In the end, it's up to an individual world whether or not it wants to join the Federation; with them, it's strictly voluntary. Unlike, say, the Klingons.

 

[OpenMaw]

Although T'kuvma was very much a manipulator... I do see his point. The Federation/Starfleet don't exactly come off all that righteous in Discovery, either.

That whole "Lock phasers on the artifact" thing could very easily have triggered a full scale war itself. How fool hardy do you have to be... Lock phasers on the thing we know nothing about, and hey, look at that hujass Klingon ship decloaking right in front of us. Heh.

 

[Mudd]

Well, I'm just as likely to sympathize with the Klingons as the Federation on this show as there's nothing terribly sympathetic about the Starfleet types.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Entitled to do so by who?

The big issue is the Federation's values which they justify themselves by are not universal ones and their causal assumption they are is part of the reason the war is happening. The Federation definitely didn't do anything other than be a target there but I understand the Klingon's logic they believe they'll be beaten economically and culturally if they don't unite.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Entitled to do so by who?

Common knowledge. Logic, if you will.

How else is the Federation supposed to expand? If they say to a prospective world, "You don't have to join if you don't want to. But if you do, you'll get these things", then what laws have they violated? What rules have they broken? What ELSE are they supposed to do?

I understand the Klingon's logic they believe they'll be beaten economically and culturally if they don't unite.

Then that's their problem. If the Klingons want to unite...fuck it, fine, let them. But as for believing they'll be "beaten"? Forget it. If that's a concern, it's on them to make themselves a more tempting target to join than the Federation.

The simple fact is, the Klingons force worlds to join. The Federation doesn't. That alone makes the Federation right and the Klingons wrong. How else can this be interpreted?

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

I'm not sympathetic to the Klingons, but at least they aren't filthy Andorians.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Common knowledge. Logic, if you will.

How else is the Federation supposed to expand? If they say to a prospective world, "You don't have to join if you don't want to. But if you do, you'll get these things", then what laws have they violated? What rules have they broken? What ELSE are they supposed to do?

Why allow them to expand at all?

Then that's their problem. If the Klingons want to unite...fuck it, fine, let them. But as for believing they'll be "beaten"? Forget it. If that's a concern, it's on them to make themselves a more tempting target to join than the Federation.

The simple fact is, the Klingons force worlds to join. The Federation doesn't. That alone makes the Federation right and the Klingons wrong. How else can this be interpreted?

Destroying a threat before it arrives.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Why allow them to expand at all?

Every culture must at least try to expand, or it will die. What else are they going to do, sit around and twiddle their thumbs all day?

The question is, HOW does it expand? Does it do so openly and legally, like the Federation? Or does it do so by bloodshed and violence, like the Klingons?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Every culture must at least try to expand, or it will die. What else are they going to do, sit around and twiddle their thumbs all day?

The question is, HOW does it expand? Does it do so openly and legally, like the Federation? Or does it do so by bloodshed and violence, like the Klingons?

Bah, the Klingons make it legal!

 

[marsh8472]

The klingons seem dumber than ever in this series

 

[fireproof78]

Bah, the Klingons make it legal!

Stop setting me up:

 

[Charles Phipps]

But yes, I'm hoping this will be a heavily Klingon focused series as a major part of the series. I don't want the, "off camera" but an integral part of the story from beginning to end.

BECAUSE KLINGONS.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

I'm totally with T'Kuvma. Think of when the admiral says "when we're fighting, we're not talking". Would you want to live next to a powerful force that is this arrogant and condescending? The Federation says it is peaceful, but even if it's true now, how do the Klingons know it won't change? Also the Klingons can reasonably fear that Federation culture which is based on peace and cooperation will seep into the Empire and turn people away from their traditional fixation on battle and competition.

The line is cliche and annoying, yes, but it falls somewhat short of justifying war. Even if the Klingons weren't already intruding in Federation space.

 

[Charles Phipps]

The line is cliche and annoying, yes, but it falls somewhat short of justifying war. Even if the Klingons weren't already intruding in Federation space.

Yes, the war is totally unjustified in terms of the Federation's fault but it's there so the Klingons can stop their own civil war.

It's weirdly similar to Pope Urban II's reasons for inciting the Crusade.

 

[Mudd]

Every culture must at least try to expand, or it will die. What else are they going to do, sit around and twiddle their thumbs all day?

Seriously?

How do we "ethically" do it on Earth now? I mean, since we "have to."

 

[Psion]

Seriously?

How do we "ethically" do it on Earth now? I mean, since we "have to."

Culturally.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I do find it a realistic response in RL. Forming alliances like the Federation does is a provactive act because we saw the result in WW1 and by nature NATO.

If Space Cuba is now a Federation planet, the Klingons have a reason to be afraid if they have Space Florida.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Or if Space Estonia and Space Latvia joined the Federation that might make Space Russians (i.e. Klingons) quite nervous.

“Members of the Federation, what you call your most remote borders, I call too close to Klingon territory”.

And after meeting Captain Lorca and Commander Landry who can blame them?