Who is better - Kirk or Janeway
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1) Sisko--One of the only two captains on this list I would actually be confident enough to follow into battle. A true military commander who has survived and brought most of his people through the most sustained, grueling combat of any of the captains on the list. Has a few epic, awful decisions to his name, but those are the exception, not the rule.
2) nuPike--Yeah, I know, this is going to be a controversial one. But the guy showed himself to be brave, decisive, forward-thinking, and quite perceptive of people and how to motivate and train them. He has a lot of what a military officer should be. He may have gotten himself grounded by his actions on the Narada (helping Spock and Kirk and not telling them he had a brain/spinal cord injury so they wouldn't slow down to be gentle with him), but that self-sacrificial act says a lot about him. Whether this guy gets back in the captain's chair or joins Admiral Hanson on the very, very short list of "Admirals We Can Actually Like and Trust," I think Pike's earned a name for himself.
3) TOS Kirk--Also decisive and a man of action, though more thoughtless on a routine basis than Sisko. But overall, the fact that he understood the spirit of the law without becoming a slave to the letter of it speaks in his favor. Also keeping him from the top two spots is that I would not feel comfortable as a woman serving on his ship.
4) Picard--No doubt the man was intelligent, and I also give him tremendous credit for surviving psychological torture the likes of which few people can survive intact. The person all of this had formed him into by the movie era was a mature, well-rounded, strong captain, able to take decisive action and not be a slave to the letter of the law. Unfortunately this was not true of Picard earlier in the series, where he shows himself to be an arrogant, moralizing, self-righteous prick who claimed to be tolerant but only "tolerated" those with his particular brand of political and philosophical ideologies; anyone else he made sure they knew he was looking down his nose at them. And frankly he was quite a political creature who had no problem with sitting coolly by and watching people die out of a notion of the Prime Directive just as twisted as that of Phlox in "Dear Doctor." One suspects Picard looked to Phlox's letters as a guide to his own philosophy. (Points also deducted by a fault of the writers': claiming he was French but almost always writing him as British without ever alluding to any experiences in his life that could account for this.)
5) Archer--With his immature, frankly childish and petulant behavior, especially as showcased in "A Night in Sickbay," Archer should've wound up at the bottom of the list, except for one thing: unlike any of the other captains on this list, everything he faced, he was facing for the first time. He didn't have the benefit of past experience, and frankly, with the way the Vulcans were acting, I can't blame him for trusting their advice as far as he could throw it. Archer wasn't a military captain, and his Starfleet was just as unprepared. He probably shouldn't have been in command, but I'll at least give him his due credit for trying to make the best out of a bad situation. (Unfortunately I think the writers fouled up here by miscasting Archer's role. Bakula's good in a certain type of role but doesn't have the chops for a serious action character.)
6) nuKirk--The only thing keeping nuKirk from the bottom of the list is that I think he still has the potential to grow. His instincts turned out to be right in Trek XI when it came to combat and the threats the Federation was facing, but otherwise, even Archer was more mature than this guy. At least the jury's still out on him; to my personal reading, the mind meld with Prime Spock seemed to shake him to the core, and there's the chance that something of the TOS Kirk, and of Prime Spock himself, may have infiltrated his thought processes and may contribute to helping him mature and stabilize his personality some.
7) Janeway--Poorly, poorly written and inconsistent. The writers bear a lot of fault for this, since I think they had absolutely no idea how to write a credible female captain. I wonder if perhaps now they could do a better job, by interviewing high-ranking female military officers and their subordinates--especially now that women are permitted in combat. I may not have liked her, but nuBsG's Starbuck came off as a far more convincing female warrior than Janeway. For Star Trek any captain (unless you want to convey someone as ruthless as Ransom or Maxwell) would have to be toned down from that, but nuBsG at least proved it could be done.
2) nuPike--Yeah, I know, this is going to be a controversial one. But the guy showed himself to be brave, decisive, forward-thinking, and quite perceptive of people and how to motivate and train them. He has a lot of what a military officer should be. He may have gotten himself grounded by his actions on the Narada (helping Spock and Kirk and not telling them he had a brain/spinal cord injury so they wouldn't slow down to be gentle with him), but that self-sacrificial act says a lot about him. Whether this guy gets back in the captain's chair or joins Admiral Hanson on the very, very short list of "Admirals We Can Actually Like and Trust," I think Pike's earned a name for himself.
3) TOS Kirk--Also decisive and a man of action, though more thoughtless on a routine basis than Sisko. But overall, the fact that he understood the spirit of the law without becoming a slave to the letter of it speaks in his favor. Also keeping him from the top two spots is that I would not feel comfortable as a woman serving on his ship.
4) Picard--No doubt the man was intelligent, and I also give him tremendous credit for surviving psychological torture the likes of which few people can survive intact. The person all of this had formed him into by the movie era was a mature, well-rounded, strong captain, able to take decisive action and not be a slave to the letter of the law. Unfortunately this was not true of Picard earlier in the series, where he shows himself to be an arrogant, moralizing, self-righteous prick who claimed to be tolerant but only "tolerated" those with his particular brand of political and philosophical ideologies; anyone else he made sure they knew he was looking down his nose at them. And frankly he was quite a political creature who had no problem with sitting coolly by and watching people die out of a notion of the Prime Directive just as twisted as that of Phlox in "Dear Doctor." One suspects Picard looked to Phlox's letters as a guide to his own philosophy. (Points also deducted by a fault of the writers': claiming he was French but almost always writing him as British without ever alluding to any experiences in his life that could account for this.)
5) Archer--With his immature, frankly childish and petulant behavior, especially as showcased in "A Night in Sickbay," Archer should've wound up at the bottom of the list, except for one thing: unlike any of the other captains on this list, everything he faced, he was facing for the first time. He didn't have the benefit of past experience, and frankly, with the way the Vulcans were acting, I can't blame him for trusting their advice as far as he could throw it. Archer wasn't a military captain, and his Starfleet was just as unprepared. He probably shouldn't have been in command, but I'll at least give him his due credit for trying to make the best out of a bad situation. (Unfortunately I think the writers fouled up here by miscasting Archer's role. Bakula's good in a certain type of role but doesn't have the chops for a serious action character.)
6) nuKirk--The only thing keeping nuKirk from the bottom of the list is that I think he still has the potential to grow. His instincts turned out to be right in Trek XI when it came to combat and the threats the Federation was facing, but otherwise, even Archer was more mature than this guy. At least the jury's still out on him; to my personal reading, the mind meld with Prime Spock seemed to shake him to the core, and there's the chance that something of the TOS Kirk, and of Prime Spock himself, may have infiltrated his thought processes and may contribute to helping him mature and stabilize his personality some.
7) Janeway--Poorly, poorly written and inconsistent. The writers bear a lot of fault for this, since I think they had absolutely no idea how to write a credible female captain. I wonder if perhaps now they could do a better job, by interviewing high-ranking female military officers and their subordinates--especially now that women are permitted in combat. I may not have liked her, but nuBsG's Starbuck came off as a far more convincing female warrior than Janeway. For Star Trek any captain (unless you want to convey someone as ruthless as Ransom or Maxwell) would have to be toned down from that, but nuBsG at least proved it could be done.
This thread is hilarious. "Who is better, Picard or Kir-I mean Janeway! Better than Kirk? I mean, is she? Er, wait..."
Anyway, I'll conform and do the list thing.
1) Picard - calm, collected, classy. The quintessential captain in some ways. Always eager to explore and learn, but is also sharp and able to negotiate or fight his way out when he has to. Has a cool accent and two maneuvers named after him.
2) Sisko - not so calm, but passionate and determined. Serves as soldier, ambassador, and mayor (to a rather rough town!) all at once, and somehow manages to balance those things. Has one of the best "you're not serious, are you?" faces in all of Trek.
3) Kirk - the action hero who still has a brain. Gets things done any way he can - brawn, cunning, seduction...
Okay, that last bit HAS been overblown by the fandom; he doesn't sleep with EVERY woman who crosses his path, seriously. Gains +6 to all stats when squaring off against a hyper-intelligent computer.
4) Janeway - it's the inconsistent writing. Sometimes she was quite good - at her best, she'd be above Kirk on my list. But too often, we got either Crazy!Janeway, Incompetant!Janeway, or just Boring!Janeway. The former two were especially grating - if we had less "Equinox", "Tuvix", and "Good Shepard" Janeway, while getting more "Scorpion", "The Thaw," and "Counterpoint" Janeway, we might've had a much better character overall.
Last) Archer - no, not "5". "Last." Because he's awful. An incompetent, unlikeable twit who never should have been given so much as a TOUR of the NX-01, let alone the captain's chair.
Anyway, I'll conform and do the list thing.
1) Picard - calm, collected, classy. The quintessential captain in some ways. Always eager to explore and learn, but is also sharp and able to negotiate or fight his way out when he has to. Has a cool accent and two maneuvers named after him.
2) Sisko - not so calm, but passionate and determined. Serves as soldier, ambassador, and mayor (to a rather rough town!) all at once, and somehow manages to balance those things. Has one of the best "you're not serious, are you?" faces in all of Trek.
3) Kirk - the action hero who still has a brain. Gets things done any way he can - brawn, cunning, seduction...
Okay, that last bit HAS been overblown by the fandom; he doesn't sleep with EVERY woman who crosses his path, seriously. Gains +6 to all stats when squaring off against a hyper-intelligent computer.4) Janeway - it's the inconsistent writing. Sometimes she was quite good - at her best, she'd be above Kirk on my list. But too often, we got either Crazy!Janeway, Incompetant!Janeway, or just Boring!Janeway. The former two were especially grating - if we had less "Equinox", "Tuvix", and "Good Shepard" Janeway, while getting more "Scorpion", "The Thaw," and "Counterpoint" Janeway, we might've had a much better character overall.
Last) Archer - no, not "5". "Last." Because he's awful. An incompetent, unlikeable twit who never should have been given so much as a TOUR of the NX-01, let alone the captain's chair.
I really don't see how that's a personal insult. He didn't call Orac stupid. It's the same as when someone will quote a previous post, rewrite part of it so that it matches their own opinion, and then post it with "Fixed that for you." Sure it may not be the most DIPLOMATIC way to express one's opinion, but it's pretty harmless.
mind=blown^Isn't that still Cheescake?
For who was the best actual captain, I would have to say Picard. He settled disputes by words rather than force, led many first contacts and successful diplomatic missions, but also won numerous tactical victories for Starfleet. He was a distinguished statesman of the fleet, who was respected instead of idolised.
He isn't my favourite Captain character (that has to be Sisko), but I'd have to say that he was the best in the role.
He isn't my favourite Captain character (that has to be Sisko), but I'd have to say that he was the best in the role.
As much as I tend to think that TNG was too 'goody 2 shoes', I place Picard on top. He was the most moralistic of all of them. If it was wrong, or immoral, he was against it plain and simple.
We got to see a lot of dimensions to him, which is why I place him slightly above Kirk.
Every time I watch Balance of Terror, I think Kirk is the best captain.
I just wish I saw more dimensions to Kirk, but 60's style television would only allow so much. He was obviously a womanizer, yet there was no explanation to it-he just womanized everything.
I like Sisko because we got some serious suspense and drama from him, the type of you'd never really get from the other captains. And militarily he wins, hands down.
I think Janeway ironically, would probably be the easiest for the average person/crew member to approach. She seemed to really care about them to the point of trying to get to know each of them. Possibly because of the feminine touch.
However.... her reputation is obvious. Knowing how Voyager was, I don't even attempt to argue against it, but still, why do so many people think she was a horrible captain or was Bi Polar?
I mean, just out of curiosity, in what episodes, what did she do to show she was not stable or consistent, and how did it show she was a bad captain?
We got to see a lot of dimensions to him, which is why I place him slightly above Kirk.
Every time I watch Balance of Terror, I think Kirk is the best captain.
I just wish I saw more dimensions to Kirk, but 60's style television would only allow so much. He was obviously a womanizer, yet there was no explanation to it-he just womanized everything.
I like Sisko because we got some serious suspense and drama from him, the type of you'd never really get from the other captains. And militarily he wins, hands down.
I think Janeway ironically, would probably be the easiest for the average person/crew member to approach. She seemed to really care about them to the point of trying to get to know each of them. Possibly because of the feminine touch.
However.... her reputation is obvious. Knowing how Voyager was, I don't even attempt to argue against it, but still, why do so many people think she was a horrible captain or was Bi Polar?
I mean, just out of curiosity, in what episodes, what did she do to show she was not stable or consistent, and how did it show she was a bad captain?
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Well, as a Janeway critic, it comes down to her writing that paralyzes the character. Kate Mulgrew certainly did a good job with what she was given, but a good actor can't overcome poor writing.
So often they want to assert that "she's the female in charge" and that "she's making the call" that she comes across as a self-parody and downright stupid at times. Then factor in how often she comes across as contradictory from one episode to the next and she comes across as well... pyschotic at times.
Janeway in Alliances, "We must not ally with the Kazon because we have to stick true to our Federation values no matter the cost, no matter who dies."
Janeway in Scorpion, "We must ally with the Borg, and help them destroy another sentient species in order to get what we want!"
Janeway in Meld, "What, execute Mr Suder because he killed someone? We don't do that around here. Now go to your room Mr Suder."
Janeway in Equinox, "I'm going to kill you, unless you tell me where your captain is, so I can hunt him down and kill him for betraying the Federation's values!"
Janeway in Phage, "You stole my crewman's lungs. But I won't kill you against your will to get them back, I'm just going to lecture you sternly so you don't do that again!"
Janeway in Tuvix, "I'm going to kill you against your will so I can revive the two crewmen I like more than you."
I could go on, but I trust you get the point there.
I'll agree on that one. Sure I voted him number three on my list, but he was the most personable of the lot. I love that he's a baseball fan and he does seem more down to Earth than the rest with his cookiing hobby and that he's a single dad.
Cheesecake trumps them all. Especially real New York cheesecake.
Both Kirk and Picard are way better. Really, did ANYONE expect Janeway to come out well here???
Well, as a Janeway critic, it comes down to her writing that paralyzes the character. Kate Mulgrew certainly did a good job with what she was given, but a good actor can't overcome poor writing.
So often they want to assert that "she's the female in charge" and that "she's making the call" that she comes across as a self-parody and downright stupid at times. Then factor in how often she comes across as contradictory from one episode to the next and she comes across as well... pyschotic at times.
Janeway in Phage, "You stole my crewman's lungs. But I won't kill you against your will to get them back, I'm just going to lecture you sternly so you don't do that again!"
Janeway in Tuvix, "I'm going to kill you against your will so I can revive the two crewmen I like more than you."
I could go on, but I trust you get the point there.
At first, I always thought something was off about Voyager, but never really understood how fans saw Janeway as a particularly bad captain.
I actually looked up some episodes to see if Janeway's decisions were really inconsistent....
She does seem to contradict herself at times.
Seriously, Capt Janeway, still annoys me. I am slaving my way through Voyager. I'd say 1 out of 7 episodes are decent.
Janeway is almost always annoying, with the exception of her fierce devotion to her crew. Things I hate about Voyager:
- Voyager, nice cool ship, new technologies, more powerful than most in the area is ALWAYS having the crap beaten out of it, then to only come back and seemingly overpower their foes. Why didn't that happen during each of the first engagements. (Typical Voyager episode, Kazan attack, Voyager crippled. Voyager repaired. Voyager kick Kazan butt.)
- Kazon, just about the most lame enemy EVER....the bad hairdo, never seen a brush aliens. But WHY is Voyager at war with the Kazan? What was it that the Kazan wanted. Replicators, for water...
Huh what? They can go to all these worlds. Seriously, they didn't need the water. But somehow, for some dumb reason they were expanded beyond the conceived role of their initial episodes I believe.
- Prime Directive, some reason Captain Janeway is the epitomy of dumb here. First, she quotes the PD more than all the other captain's combined. But <sarcasm>best</sarcasm> of all she mis-applies it. She refuses to trade replicator technology because she deems the Kazan to be less advanced race.
Um where, when did the Prime Directive EVER dictate that. It never did..."huh what?" you say...
The Prime Directive did NOT apply to the Kazan as they were already a warp capable race. So there was no reason that Janeway could not established trade with the Kazan. Perhaps seen if they had any technology or resources that the Federation did not have.
If the Prime Directive had been enforced as Janeway did the Federation could never exist. Because it would have required every race to have the exact same technology level. Vulcans were far more advanced than Earth initially.
The whole point was that a species had to have achieved warp capability, and the Kazan had that. So literally, 1/2 the plots of the first half of Voyager are due to the fact that Janeway's character got the Prime Directive miserably wrong.
- Neelix...argh. Seriously, most of the characters on Voyager I could not stand. I haven't reached the Borg era of Voyager yet. Some of the Q-episodes were really good. That was a very good plot line. A few others as well (when they contact the Romulan ship in the past). But most are very blah, repetitive.
My Ratings for the Captains
1) Sulu (most realistic)
2) Kirk/Picard
3) Sisko
4) Archer
5) The Skipper from Gilligan's island
6) Janeway
Best Female Captains:
1) Ivanova of the White Star fleet
"Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you will ever see. God sent me."
2) Delenn of the Minbari Battle fleet
"Why not? Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
Janeway is almost always annoying, with the exception of her fierce devotion to her crew. Things I hate about Voyager:
- Voyager, nice cool ship, new technologies, more powerful than most in the area is ALWAYS having the crap beaten out of it, then to only come back and seemingly overpower their foes. Why didn't that happen during each of the first engagements. (Typical Voyager episode, Kazan attack, Voyager crippled. Voyager repaired. Voyager kick Kazan butt.)
- Kazon, just about the most lame enemy EVER....the bad hairdo, never seen a brush aliens. But WHY is Voyager at war with the Kazan? What was it that the Kazan wanted. Replicators, for water...
Huh what? They can go to all these worlds. Seriously, they didn't need the water. But somehow, for some dumb reason they were expanded beyond the conceived role of their initial episodes I believe.
- Prime Directive, some reason Captain Janeway is the epitomy of dumb here. First, she quotes the PD more than all the other captain's combined. But <sarcasm>best</sarcasm> of all she mis-applies it. She refuses to trade replicator technology because she deems the Kazan to be less advanced race.
Um where, when did the Prime Directive EVER dictate that. It never did..."huh what?" you say...
The Prime Directive did NOT apply to the Kazan as they were already a warp capable race. So there was no reason that Janeway could not established trade with the Kazan. Perhaps seen if they had any technology or resources that the Federation did not have.
If the Prime Directive had been enforced as Janeway did the Federation could never exist. Because it would have required every race to have the exact same technology level. Vulcans were far more advanced than Earth initially.
The whole point was that a species had to have achieved warp capability, and the Kazan had that. So literally, 1/2 the plots of the first half of Voyager are due to the fact that Janeway's character got the Prime Directive miserably wrong.
- Neelix...argh. Seriously, most of the characters on Voyager I could not stand. I haven't reached the Borg era of Voyager yet. Some of the Q-episodes were really good. That was a very good plot line. A few others as well (when they contact the Romulan ship in the past). But most are very blah, repetitive.
My Ratings for the Captains
1) Sulu (most realistic)
2) Kirk/Picard
3) Sisko
4) Archer
5) The Skipper from Gilligan's island
6) Janeway
Best Female Captains:
1) Ivanova of the White Star fleet
"Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you will ever see. God sent me."
2) Delenn of the Minbari Battle fleet
"Why not? Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
I don't know whether it's Kirk or Picard vs. Janeway. If it's Kirk, it's not even a contest, he's so much better than she is that it's like comparing Michael Jordan to Hubert Davis.
If it's Picard, then it's a much closer thing, but still Picard is the better captain.
For me, Kirk and Sisko are the best. Then there's a huge drop-off until we get to Picard, then Janeway close behind him. Then another huge drop-off until we get to Archer, who is like a random 7-Eleven clerk who won a contest to be a starship captain.
Archer makes Harriman look like a good captain.
If it's Picard, then it's a much closer thing, but still Picard is the better captain.
For me, Kirk and Sisko are the best. Then there's a huge drop-off until we get to Picard, then Janeway close behind him. Then another huge drop-off until we get to Archer, who is like a random 7-Eleven clerk who won a contest to be a starship captain.
Archer makes Harriman look like a good captain.
Sisko I still like best, just because I like his style.
Picard is next, cool, calm,intelligent. The thinking man's leader.
Kirk follows, as he is still the archetype of the Federation Captain.
Archer, then. The Vulcans approved him, hesitantly. Henry Archer was a friend of Cochrane and influential in designing the NX-01, so it unfortunately makes sense that he might get the Captain's chair. I feel he grew into it well, but, that's my opinion.
Janeway - how did she get to be an Admiral before Picard? I do agree that she could be inconsistent in how she was written. Mulgrew played her great, but TPTB did like to mess with her.
AbramsTrek - Pike was okay, better than Kirk.
Picard is next, cool, calm,intelligent. The thinking man's leader.
Kirk follows, as he is still the archetype of the Federation Captain.
Archer, then. The Vulcans approved him, hesitantly. Henry Archer was a friend of Cochrane and influential in designing the NX-01, so it unfortunately makes sense that he might get the Captain's chair. I feel he grew into it well, but, that's my opinion.
Janeway - how did she get to be an Admiral before Picard? I do agree that she could be inconsistent in how she was written. Mulgrew played her great, but TPTB did like to mess with her.
AbramsTrek - Pike was okay, better than Kirk.
