Why are you assuming that Vulcans haven't developed any sort of control over what is and isn't revealed when they mind meld with each other?
In my second paragraph I deduced that they must have control, because otherwise no one would ever mind meld. But even so, would you want to do it with your parents?
My opinion but, I would expect that they do not need to to communicate and even share some thoughts silently but, to REALLY communicate - they meld.
Probably a much deeper link than anything else.
I prefer to think that Kurtzman-Trek is an alternate universe, all of its own, that never touches TOS.
Correct me on this, but I heard that a staffer on a Kurtzman-Trek show could lose his job if he pointed out any continuity problems between an upcoming script and TOS. Like, "You're one of THOSE people? Clean out your desk."
Then consider yourself duly corrected. There is no truth to that statement at all.
Anything but admit that it is just a TV show penned by many writers, over many decades and different series. Discontinuities and conflicts MUST be force-fit into one "canon" with an in-universe explanation—including shots where the part in Kirk's hair changes sides!
We'd all love a show with tightly integrated details and flawless continuity, but that would be a rare bird, indeed. Such a flawless show would be easier to "believe." I enjoyed the original Stargate in the cinema, but did not watch the series when it aired. I am going through it now, and there are conflicts and errors everywhere. Not an episode goes by that does not introduce some new kink. In retrospect, the original movie had errors, too. (One example is that the gate is one-way, yet the MALP robot was able to radio back telemetry and images.) This does not stop me from enjoying the show. It's a geek-fest. Shoulder roll with it! And never give up, never surrender.
Nah, in the final episode of SNW Spock is going to suffer a head injury that gives him partial amnesia.
Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are exactly that.
"I would accept that as an axiom."
Lower Decks implied this is the case, and separate universes is the only headcanon I can tolerate for myself. Kurtzman Trek apparently gives some people what they want in a Star Trek, but for me it misses all the important beats that made me fall in love with TOS. And it clearly has no respect for TOS, beyond it providing a foundation that could be exploited.
And Star Trek never was that.
I see this said but I don't see how Kurtzman is any different in "respect" than other spin offs.
I guess it's subjective; my perception goes like this:
- TNG, DS9, VOY: good; tried to extend the universe without invalidating it
- ENT: so-so; usurped a lot of "firsts" (and the series finale was an abomination)
- Kurtz: terrible; tried to rewrite the whole universe; "didn't respect the source material" in spades
- JJ: fine by me; he explicitly split off a parallel universe and I find these films entertaining
I disagree but this isn't the thread I suppose
And why not? I mean, I agree with you, but I just wonder why Trek hasn't or can not (ever?) achieve that level of writing?
It feels like if Trek could be written by people who write shows like The Expanse, Westworld, Foundation, etc... that it could really be epic.
Probably because Star Trek started out as extremely episodic, and adventure of the week style, with developments not really being born out with any consequences until TNG somewhat, and DS9 mostly. It's centered more on the reactions of the crew week to week than as much world building. Things were forgotten as easily as they occurred.
Cam it happen? Sure, but all the examples you cite have book series serving as references and touch points. When you don't have that you need a firm hand guiding the writing and keeping things tight.
Breaking Bad and For All Mankind sure aren't based on any novels, and yet they manage(d) to be very tightknit. Star Trek should aim to be up to par with all of these shows that have been mentioned while also keeping its core values. If it can do both, then it'll hit the sweet spot.
As far as "Dagger of The Mind" -- sorry to actually talk about TOS! -- here's the exact dialogue, courtesy of Chakoteya (formatting mine):
As far as "Dagger of The Mind" -- sorry to actually talk about TOS! -- here's the exact dialogue, courtesy of Chakoteya (formatting mine):
McCoy: Spock, if there's the slightest possibility it might help.
Spock: I've never used it on a human, Doctor.
McCoy: If there's any way we can look into this man's mind to see if what he's seeing is real or delusion
Spock: It's a hidden, personal thing to the Vulcan people, part of our private lives.
McCoy: Now look, Spock, Jim Kirk could be in real trouble. Will it work or not?
Spock: It could be dangerous. Do you understand? It requires I make pressure changes in your nerves, your blood vessels.
Van Gelder: You must open my mind. Let me warn you and explain to you.
Spock: This will not affect you, Doctor McCoy, only the person I touch. It is not hypnosis.
McCoy: I understand. (Spock puts his hands on Van Gelder's face) Good, the reading's levelling.
Spock: You begin to feel a strange euphoria. Your body floats.
Van Gelder: Yes, I begin to feel it.
Spock: Open your mind. We move together. Our minds sharing the same thoughts.
As far as SNW? It's going to do whatever thing it's going to do. But the above is what Spock said in TOS.
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I agree that it can be done but Vince Gilligan and Rob Moore (respectively) were the tight hand that guided each of those which is necessary for that to happen.
Those are modern shows, written to the standards of modern prestige television, by largely the same creative team, within a short period of time.
Now imagine somebody decides to do a new Breaking Bad spin-off twenty to sixty years from now, made by a new generation of creatives for a new audience with newer standards and expectations. You really think that Breaking Bad: Discovery: Strange New Crimes is going to be 100% consistent with the original show from fifty-some years ago? That the creators aren't going to tweak and adjust things for holo-audiences in 2060? That every line from that old, vintage TV show is going to be treated as gospel? Heck, who knows? Maybe viewers in 2060 will have gotten over the whole "canon" obsession and be less nitpicky than today's fandoms?
Look, back in the sixties, when they hastily scripted that scene in "Dagger in the Mind" (to replace the hypnosis scene the NBC censors had vetoed), nobody was worrying about whether that one line about Spock having never mind-melded with a human was going to prove inconvenient decades later for the folks making a brand-new, 21st-century Star Trek series about Spock and Co. They were just trying to up the drama of that particular scene by making the meld sound very, very risky.
So I don't think we should be too fundamentalist about it, nor expect Breaking Bad-level continuity in a sixty-year-old franchise created by many, many diverse hands.
(And honestly what was SNW supposed to do? Refrain from all Spock/human mind-melds for the entire duration of the new series, just to avoid contradicting one line of dialogue from a piece of old-fashioned, episodic television written close to sixty years ago?)
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I don't know, but if Kurtzman is going to claim his show is a prequel to the original TOS, then he should anticipate that people are going to notice when the show ignores whatever has been established in the original. That's just basic prep for a prequel. I mean, where's Colt? Why have Chapel on the Enterprise and not Colt? Or Jose Tyler? Why bring on McCoy and M'Benga and not Boyce or Piper? He's obviously diverging from the original series. It's more than one or two discontinuities. It's choices to break with the original series. That's why it makes sense to see SNW as an alternate universe.
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