Where does the core saga go after Episode 9?

[Locutus of Bored]

Where does the core saga go after Episode 9?

Cleveland

Probably either jump into the near future with the Dickensian Force-wielding moppet(s) from Canto Bight (and elsewhere) building a new Jedi Academy under Master Rey as they get older, or go for an ancient trilogy like The Old Republic games set before the Sith Rule of Two was implimented by Darth Bane so you can have armies of Jedi and Sith going at it for peak fangasm.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Where does the core saga go after Episode 9?

Cleveland

No one deliberately goes to Cleveland.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

No one deliberately goes to Cleveland.

I was picturing it more like the black hole in Cleveland where all lost airline luggage eventually winds up. That giant space squid from Solo lives there now.

 

[fireproof78]

I was picturing it more like the black hole in Cleveland where all lost airline luggage eventually winds up. That giant space squid from Solo lives there now.

You know. A friend of mind speculated that black holes lead somewhere. Cleveland makes sense. Howard the Duck was a documentary you know

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Such as the yin/yang duality of taoism, the real world philosophy that incorporates chi, an almost word for word analogue for the force? GL was pretty open about having been inspired by it even though he drew on other real, world analogues to round out the portrayal.

Yes, but those methodologies vary widely, you are focusing narrowly on the western traditions which least parallel the force as presented. Mush like with the force, the practise of eastern spirituality acknowledges that the disciplines are just a means to an end, ways for people to understand and interact with a force (no pun intended) which is simultaneously outside of themselves and flowing through them. Not once are those disciplines purpoted to be the only way to sense or interact with that phenomena, much as with the force

The force and its teachings was not limited to Eastern philosophy. Christian theology weighs heavily in the OT/PT establishment of the force. A few examples being the dark side not only being a perversion of true faith (IOW, Satanism), but the constantly repeated, dominant theme / parallel of temptation with the promise of greater power and or rule over nations (or the galaxy, in this film series) as in Satan's attempt to tempt Christ while in the Judean desert, selling the soul (Anakin is a case study in that), right down to Lucas finally hitting audiences over the head with Maul being the embodiment of stereotyped devil imagery.

But it was, the structure was a process applied to allow the mind a route to access that which is already there, it's literally spelled out in Obi Wan's explanation to Luke as quoted above.

The force being "an energy field created by all living things" never meant all living beings had natural access to understanding/using it. That was never said or suggested in the O/PT, hence the reason Luke--instead of any of the endless numbers of beings in the galaxy--was deliberately hidden away to be trained at a later date. It's the reason the PT Jedi Order never said or implied everyone from Anyplace, The Galaxy had an inherent connection to the force on the level necessary to become a full on practitioner of the force..in other words, a Jedi. It Luke, and every Jedi were selected. From that selection, the trainee (or Padawan, if you prefer) was immerse in a doctrine that was the means of understanding the force and how to use it. It is the very reason Obi-Wan said "you must learn the ways of the force" not "well, anyone can do this. You'll pick it up eventually." Its the reason Obi-Wan sent Luke to Yoda--the use and understanding of the force is natural to special beings, placed in a necessary spiritual/doctrinal frame, not just plucked out of nowhere by anyone, which was never auggested or presented in episodes 1 - 6.

Again, this was reserved for a select special few; the opposite belief (it's just something anyone can access) robs the entire series of that mythical/fairy tale base where unique beings not only have a special gift, but are brought into an equally special group capable of shaping that person into one who will live up to his potential as that fate changing and/or land/nation/planet/galaxy-saving hero. That's the foundation of the Skywalker story, and the contrast between its necessary light side spiritualism / doctrine and its bastardized opposite.

 

[Spot261]

The force and its teachings was not limited to Eastern philosophy. Christian theology weighs heavily in the OT/PT establishment of the force. A few examples being the dark side not only being a perversion of true faith (IOW, Satanism), but the constantly repeated, dominant theme / parallel of temptation with the promise of greater power and or rule over nations (or the galaxy, in this film series) as in Satan's attempt to tempt Christ while in the Judean desert, selling the soul (Anakin is a case study in that), right down to Lucas finally hitting audiences over the head with Maul being the embodiment of stereotyped devil imagery.

I quite clearly said it wasn't limited to Eastern philosophy, but there is nothing in Western philosophy that even remotely comes close to being as clear and unambiguous an analogue. What imagery Western religions contribute is just that, imagery. The Force works nothing like the self aware mythical beings of the JudeoChristian tradition, that's a pretty laughable assertion to be honest.

The force being "an energy field created by all living things" never meant all living beings had natural access to understanding/using it. That was never said or suggested in the O/PT, hence the reason Luke--instead of any of the endless numbers of beings in the galaxy--was deliberately hidden away to be trained at a later date.

It was also never stated in the OT that he was hidden away because of his inherent abilities, merely that he was hidden away from his father. There are many parallels for such political gambits throughout history, with Luke representing a politically important figure as much as a force user. Stating from the OT that he was hidden away because of an inherent aptitude for the force is projection based on knowledge of what we later learned.

was immerse in a doctrine that was the means of understanding the force and how to use it. It is the very reason Obi-Wan said "you must learn the ways of the force" not "well, anyone can do this. You'll pick it up eventually."

Yes, "you must learn", not "only you can possibly learn" ad it is A way, not THE way. That mistake was the very hubris which led to the downfall of the Jedi, the failure to grasp that the force is something larger than they are, something beyond their teachings. They are simply one group using one method of interacting with the force in a galaxy full of beings doing it without their training.

Again, this was reserved for a select special few; the opposite belief (it's just something anyone can access) robs the entire series of that mythical/fairy tale base where unique beings not only have a special gift, but are brought into an equally special group capable of shaping that person into one who will live up to his potential as that fate changing and/or land/nation/planet/galaxy-saving hero. That's the foundation of the Skywalker story, and the contrast between its necessary light side spiritualism / doctrine and its bastardized opposite

Nope.

 

[Trekkin]

If special Force-related abilities are saved for a chosen few, why is Watto’s entire race apparently immune to the mind trick?

Even kyber is implied to get some sort of power boost from The Force, and explicitly did in the EU. And they’re (1) fucking rocks, and (2) capable of being handled and wielded by utterly normal noobs like Krennic.

Not saying that everyone is cut out to be Sith/Jedi. But then again, not everyone’s capable of being an Olympic athlete in spite of most people having the ‘raw material’ available to them. The idea that the Force is completely (or even mostly) inaccessible to everyone but the ones who are super genetic combo of special, is not exactly supported by anything in the actual text.

I mean, phrase is ‘May the Force be with you/The Force is with me...always.’

Also...most heroes in fairytales are totally normal people. The only thing that usually makes ‘em special, is that they might be rich or have some sort of social privilege. Greek and Arthurian legend went into the ‘chosen by Gods’ shit a little more, but in that context it nearly always ended up a bad thing. The gods favour could be particularly fickle, and we are but playthings...

 

[thribs]

The Vong invade, only this time they are welcomed with open arms.

 

[fireproof78]

Also...most heroes in fairytales are totally normal people. The only thing that usually makes ‘em special, is that they might be rich or have some sort of social privilege. Greek and Arthurian legend went into the ‘chosen by Gods’ shit a little more, but in that context it nearly always ended up a bad thing. The gods favour could be particularly fickle, and we are but playthings...

This is something that has stood out to me. The idea of the "Chosen One" in Star Wars might be a prophecy that was misread and then manipulated by the Sith to serve their ends of restricting these powers to societal few. When, in reality, the Force is meant for all.

 

[thribs]

They introduce the multiverse and Grandmaster Luke comes over and helps out.

 

[Set Harth]

It was also never stated in the OT that he was hidden away because of his inherent abilities, merely that he was hidden away from his father.

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

In the OT we find Palpatine saying outright that the Sith risk destruction at Luke's hand. Could the same be said for everyone else in the galaxy? If it could, wouldn't that make it sort of pointless to single out Luke in this regard?

Stating from the OT that he was hidden away because of an inherent aptitude for the force is projection based on knowledge of what we later learned.

Not really. It's the difference between "The Force is strong in my family" as opposed to "The Force is strong in everyone." One of these was said in the OT; the other wasn't.

 

[Trekkin]

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

In the OT we find Palpatine saying outright that the Sith risk destruction at Luke's hand. Could the same be said for everyone else in the galaxy?

(1) The Sith risk destruction because they keep knocking each other off, and leaving big holes in their space stations. Lando, Leia, and Han didn’t even need any Force tricks to overcome Sidious stupid ‘I’ll leave them the actual plans to the real weak spot’ trap.

(2) Also, yes. Because ‘There is another.’

Which ROTJ hinted as Leia, but that certainly wasn’t what was intended in ESB and remains vague enough for other readings.

 

[Set Harth]

The point is that ROTJ is an OT film. ( And "hinted" isn't the word you're looking for there. )

Lando, Leia, and Han didn’t even need any Force tricks to overcome Sidious stupid ‘I’ll leave them the actual plans to the real weak spot’ trap.

It stands to reason that an unkilled Palpatine gets to his escape shuttle faster than a Luke dragging a Vader. I've done the math.

 

[Trekkin]

Yeah, it most definitely is. Unless you can quote the scene where it’s ever actually confirmed.

And the novelisation at the time outright specified that Yoda meant ‘there will always be another.’ Because pffft, do y’all think Lucas and co. had a plan or something?

The Force is strong in my family"

You know, when Luke says that...the only other Jedi in his family that he knows about is Vader. As far as he knows, most of his family are basically muggles (Leia, Owen, Beru, and the then-unnamed sad mother.)

Maybe Owen should have let him go to the Acadamy. The inevitable statistics course would have done Luke some good.

 

[Spot261]

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

In the OT we find Palpatine saying outright that the Sith risk destruction at Luke's hand. Could the same be said for everyone else in the galaxy? If it could, wouldn't that make it sort of pointless to single out Luke in this regard?

Not necessarily, we are talking about power dynasties, a phenomenon which is very familiar in the real world without any reference to the force. We are talking about someone who could easily become a rival to his power base and if there is one thing we can be sure of Palpatine is extremely ruthless where it comes to protecting that power base.

Force prodigy not needed, that plotline would work equally well in a setting which eliminated the fantasy elements of the franchise altogether.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming the likes of Luke, Anakin, Leiea and Rey aren't prodigies, aren't particularly talented and that the attributes underlying that talent can't be passed on genetically, but in the OT those attributes were ill defined, the overall picture being that some people were especially open to the force, not that only certain people could access it at all.

There are thousands of possible real world analogies here, it's very likely that the offspring of a talented athlete will be similarly talented, or that of a world renowned scientist might be more intelligent than average. It doesn't follow that others cannot pursue those callings to a level according to their own innate abilities or stretch those abilities with training.

That was the understanding we had with the OT,the force was something available to everyone in some form but the midichlorians changed that, it became a question of pre destiny, an attribute and privilege open to a select few as a birthright.

TLJ has brought us full circle, the force is once again egalitarian in the way sports or academia are in an ideal world. It can be accessed and studied by anyone again, regardless of their talent.

Not really. It's the difference between "The Force is strong in my family" as opposed to "The Force is strong in everyone." One of these was said in the OT; the other wasn't.

Said by someone who conveniently has very little idea how the force actually works, merely an intuitive grasp of how to use it, someone who was trying to convey a personal message about the nature of his relationship to the listener, not a treatise on the underlying nature of reality.

 

[Trekkin]

We are talking about someone who could easily become a rival to his power base and if there is one thing we can be sure of Palpatine is extremely ruthless where it comes to protecting that power base.

Luke’s mere existence is literally enough for Vader to immediately start scheming about otherthrow Palpatine, after sitting around on his butt for decades. Before he’d even met Luke.

Damn right Luke’s a threat, but not necessarily because of his strength. When Palpatine dies (and the Sith fall, for a bit), it ain’t because of Luke’s and Anakin’s Force zooper-duperness. It’s because of, well...the simple power of twu wuv, some bitchin robot arms, and a convenient chasm.

That’s kinda the entire point. Palpatine was so hung up on Luke and Vader potentially being super-speshul Force users in a grand ‘vision’, that he ironically misjudges some very basic human behaviour at every turn. He places too much value on the wrong things.

Cos he’s the bad guy.

 

[Spot261]

Damn right Luke’s a threat, but not necessarily because of his strength. When Palpatine dies (and the Sith fall, for a bit), it ain’t because of Luke’s and Anakin’s Force zooper-duperness. It’s because of, well...the simple power of twu wuv, some bitchin robot arms, and a convenient chasm.

That’s kinda the entire point. Palpatine was so hung up on Luke and Vader potentially being super-speshul Force users in a grand ‘vision’, that he ironically misjudges some very basic human behaviour at every turn. He places too much value on the wrong things.

Yup, Luke was nowhere near powerful enough to defeat Palpatine with the force, not yet at least. He was a threat because he would upset the balance of power and loyalty which had become the status quo

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I quite clearly said it wasn't limited to Eastern philosophy, but there is nothing in Western philosophy that even remotely comes close to being as clear and unambiguous an analogue. What imagery Western religions contribute is just that, imagery. The Force works nothing like the self aware mythical beings of the JudeoChristian tradition, that's a pretty laughable assertion to be honest.

This sounds like a bias against the Christian influence in the Star Wars series. The all-important concept of temptation as presented in the series is not based on any Eastern belief; iIt is handled in a clearly Christian fashion about how, why and the consequences of temptation (and redemption) as defined in Christian scripture. In addition to the other references mentioned earlier, Lucas uses more Biblical influence in a literal sense in Revenge of the Sith, with the lava lakes of Mustafar took much except the Separatists' headquarters in part from Revelation 20:13-15-- “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" which is reserved for the unrepentant. In SW terms, its Anakin, who--despite Kenobi's pleas--is completely dedicated to spiritual corruption as a Sith, and receives what would be his eternal punishment not just from Obi-Wan's attack, but being burned alive by that lava lake--a condition he would suffer with for the rest of his life.

Even the series' most famous reference to the force--the expression "May the force be with you" is based on the line from Numbers 6:24, "May the Lord bless you and protect you" as well as the ancient saying, "May the Lord be with you." There's nothing reaching or ambiguous about any of it.

It was also never stated in the OT that he was hidden away because of his inherent abilities, merely that he was hidden away from his father.

Not quite....

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

There are many parallels for such political gambits throughout history, with Luke representing a politically important figure as much as a force user. Stating from the OT that he was hidden away because of an inherent aptitude for the force is projection based on knowledge of what we later learned.[/quote]

That's right: in the OT, it is made clear (by Obi-Wan) he and his sister were hidden because of their unique status/connection to the force. This did not, nor did it ever apply to random, faceless millions, but the rare, fairy tale/mythical heroes.

Yes, "you must learn", not "only you can possibly learn" ad it is A way, not THE way. That mistake was the very hubris which led to the downfall of the Jedi, the failure to grasp that the force is something larger than they are, something beyond their teachings. They are simply one group using one method of interacting with the force in a galaxy full of beings doing it without their training.

The O/PT did not tiptoe around how the force was accessed, used and understood. Nowhere in those 6 films did anyone--Jedi or Sith--say accessing / using the force was something any random person could do. Special individuals were located and trained, but their numbers were finite, as that level of force potential was not common.

Not really. It's the difference between "The Force is strong in my family" as opposed to "The Force is strong in everyone." One of these was said in the OT; the other wasn't.

...and the one that was said--"The force is strong in my family"--was written to continue hammering home the point that the Skywalkers were unique in relation to accessing/using the force--a family who changed a galaxy over and over again, first with Anakin's soul corruption aiding in the birth of the Sith-controlled empire, and his children being the key threats to opposing that / restoring morality/justice to the galaxy. As said time and again, that was not the ability of any random person, not Han, Tarkin, Lando, Mon Mothma, Motti, Greedo, Jabba, Biggs, Piett, Wedge, Chewbacca, Lobot, Wicket, Owen and Beru Lars, Boba Fett or anyone else in that series.

Star Wars was patterned on (among other influences) the traditions of the unique hero being the one born to either lead the way to salvation (historically, in the form of Christ), or the leader defending a nation and/or having larger than life exploits (Arthurian myth traditions) which are undeniably defining traits of Luke, not everyone in the universe.

 

[Spot261]

The all-important concept of temptation as presented in the series is not based on any Eastern belief

Is it not? My word, I'll have to reconsider my whole world view.

iIt is handled in a clearly Christian fashion about how, why and the consequences of temptation (and redemption) as defined in Christian scripture

So imagery, as I said. Not the function of the force.

In addition to the other references mentioned earlier, Lucas uses more Biblical influence in a literal sense in Revenge of the Sith, with the lava lakes of Mustafar took much except the Separatists' headquarters in part from Revelation 20:13-15-- “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" which is reserved for the unrepentant. In SW terms, its Anakin, who--despite Kenobi's pleas--is completely dedicated to spiritual corruption as a Sith, and receives what would be his eternal punishment not just from Obi-Wan's attack, but being burned alive by that lava lake--a condition he would suffer with for the rest of his life.

Still more imagery.

Even the series' most famous reference to the force--the expression "May the force be with you" is based on the line from Numbers 6:24, "May the Lord bless you and protect you" as well as the ancient saying, "May the Lord be with you." There's nothing reaching or ambiguous about any of it.

Guess what? You got it, more imagery.

Not quite....

Yes.

The O/PT did not tiptoe around how the force was accessed, used and understood. Nowhere in those 6 films did anyone--Jedi or Sith--say accessing / using the force was something any random person could do. Special individuals were located and trained, but their numbers were finite, as that level of force potential was not common.

I'd love to know what films you were watching.

 

[fireproof78]

The O/PT did not tiptoe around how the force was accessed, used and understood. Nowhere in those 6 films did anyone--Jedi or Sith--say accessing / using the force was something any random person could do. Special individuals were located and trained, but their numbers were finite, as that level of force potential was not common.

That's part of the problem though. All the audience has had is the Jedi and Sith view of the Force, which may not be complete. Certainly doesn't limit Force users to just those practitioners, as evidenced by Dathomir.