Beyond the infinite!
Seriously, I would be okay if IX was the end of the main franchise. I think 9 films is a great round number and I'm okay with the idea of seeing other stories outside of this series.
Where does the core saga go after Episode 9?
- Thread starter Jedi Marso
- Start date
Beyond the infinite!
Seriously, I would be okay if IX was the end of the main franchise. I think 9 films is a great round number and I'm okay with the idea of seeing other stories outside of this series.
That would be nice.
That's nice, but I was talking about TESB. That there's a kid with Force potential. STOP THE PRESSES! So tell me how this is to be construed as something new which TLJ brings to the table. Once again, the concept that other Force-sensitives are out there, naturally occurring in the general population, is right there staring us in the face in one of the other movies. But we have to pretend that's not the case, if we are to pretend that TLJ did something.
And how is it to be construed that the potential of one specific person necessarily applies to everyone else in the universe? Don't we have a name for this sort of thing... projecting an agenda onto the film? I guess we could call it putting words in the film's mouth, given the film didn't even use the words necessary to stake out such a position.
I'm sure a Sith would agree!
Or a Dagoyan Master.
Or Maz, for that matter.
All of these being examples which predate TLJ by a minimum of two years and a maximum of around forty.
That was put out there in 1977.
Didn't you get the memo?
That there's a kid with Force potential. STOP THE PRESSES! So tell me how this is to be construed as something new which TLJ brings to the table. Once again, the concept that other Force-sensitives are out there, naturally occurring in the general population, is right there staring us in the face in one of the other movies. But we have to pretend that's not the case, if we are to pretend that TLJ did something.
And how is it to be construed that the potential of one specific person necessarily applies to everyone else in the universe? Don't we have a name for this sort of thing... projecting an agenda onto the film? I guess we could call it putting words in the film's mouth, given the film didn't even use the words necessary to stake out such a position.
I'm sure a Sith would agree!
Or a Dagoyan Master.
Or Maz, for that matter.
All of these being examples which predate TLJ by a minimum of two years and a maximum of around forty.
That was put out there in 1977.
Didn't you get the memo?
I'm getting curious here, why is it that my offering my own perspective on the OT several days ago has left you so unable to let it go and prove "wrong" what was only ever given as a subjective impression?
You seem remarkably determined to keep pushing a point that frankly everyone else moved on from a long time ago. We could keep doing this ad infinitum but it got tiresome a while back and we're getting nowhere. My point is simply that I found the OT's presentation of the force more accessible and egalitarian than that of the PT, why is that so offensive to you?
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It's never stated outright, but I it's pretty clear just from the way people react to Force users like the Sith, Jedi, Nightsisters, ect. that not everyone is able to lift rocks with their minds, use mind tricks, run super fast, or jump super high. We never see characters like Han, Padme, Finn, Poe, or Qi'ra do any of that stuff, and I'm pretty sure there were a lot of situations where they would have if they had the same abilities as the Jedi/Sith characters. I'm pretty sure the Stormtroopers would have probably just thrown the rocks right back at the Ewoks if they were all Force users, and they probably would have stood a better chance against Luke.
Even if they don't come out and say it, I think it's pretty clear just watching the movies.
Ummmm, no. You claimed he did say it. He didn't. In fact there's nothing whatsoever about that arc which necessitates Luke having force ability at all, nor is it implied. That's exactly why the exiled royal is such a trope throughout fiction, the idea of a child (or adult) who represents a threat tot he political power base.
Well, no, those are the same statement rephrased; "everyone could use the force", "anyone could potentially use the force", unless you are using the weaker form of the latter (social status and position is irrelevant) in which case THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!![/QUOTE]
No they are not the same thing, what I mean is that nothing to there is nothing special that causes only certain people to have Force Powers, but not everyone actually ends up having them. To go to the comics for example, there are no Terrigen Jedi Crystals that they need to be exposed to, it's more like mutants, where they can just kind of randomly pop up.
I hope they go a hundred years in the future, so they can start fresh.
And I still hope they are going film a KOTOR movie
And I still hope they are going film a KOTOR movie
A large, galaxy spanning threat of hyperspace aliens who are tired of the galaxy infringing upon their turf.
That's the beauty of midichlorian debates though. They can potentially manifest in any thread at any time.
Evidence pointing to a clear source in plain sight and the conclusion based on it is the case.
No, you being unenlightened leads to this repeated arguing against that which was present as influence, explanation and method of the nature of the force as played out in the movies. Christianity's Divine Birth in Star Wars is spelled out with "the will of the force" (as SW's version of God), with Anakin being the product of virgin birth to act as savior to a corrupted use/imbalance of the force in the galaxy (SW's version of real world's sinful man and his effect on the world). Again, its all spelled out on screen about the "how and why" of the force and Anakin's role in it, but please, continue the schoolyard flames and denial of the Christian influence/presence in Star Wars, shining a light on an agenda as apparent as the one in your fact-challenged arguments with Set Harth.
Yep.
Not at all. The 6 films which wrote the book on force potential never said or implied it was accessible to everyone, and anyone making the opposing argument have yet to post scene references or quotes to support that woefully go-nowhere position.
Which did not mean all beings were inherently gifted with the ability to tap into/understand/use it to its supernatural level as seen with the Jedi (or Sith). No one in 6 P/OT films went anywhere near saying that, or showing it in any scene. As I recall, Jar Jar, the cantina bartender Wuher, Kitster, Porkins, the Ugnaughts, Dak, Paploo the Gamorrean guards or any other random being never expressed or displayed this potential to any degree--because it was never meant to be a trait of every random being.
I think we are seeing the evidence very differently, but clearly we aren't going to shift on that.
There are two distinct problems here and I'm not sure which to focus on more because they both relate to the underlying structure of this debate.
1) We were comparing the OT against the PT, not grouping them collectively, that was the whole point. That Anakin's portrayal is in contrast to the OT and moves the nature of the force away from that shown in the OT is exactly what I was saying to you in the first place.
2) Again, I've never disagreed with what you are actually saying in these two paragraphs, on the contrary I've made exactly the same comments up thread, but crucially done so in context. Those christian influences come primarily into play in the PT and crucially still don't have anything to say about the mechanics of using the force, which was the point and why I keep making the distinction between large scale imagery and individual level tapping of the force.
They also never said it wasn't, which was again the point. It didn't explain how or why Luke was so gifted, merely that he had a particular aptitude. Given the quote already given about the nature of the force (the defining cultural reference to it in fact) made it quite clear the force was present in every living being we were left with a situation where:
1) the force was in everyone
2) Luke was just particularly talented at accessing it
There was nothing to preclude anyone sensing or communicating with it, much as there is nothing to preclude you or I engaging in sporting or intellectual pursuits without ever reaching the heights of Usain Bolt or Jerry Fodor. Your argument requires not only a lack of portrayal but proof positive of denial which isn't present in the films.
The PT, however, closed that particular door with the midichlorians. You either could access it or you couldn't, it was a binary thing whether you reached the required threshold or didn't, and thus a matter of birthright. It shifted the social themes away from one of hope and egalitarian opportunity to one of predestiny and birthright. That, for me, took away from the aspirational nature of the OT, the sense that anyone, anywhere could be a part of the bigger picture because there was this underlying shared experience of accessing something greater and more fundamental than oneself. It made the Jedi elitist and that is explicitly a theme which is explored throughout the franchise as contributing to their downfall.
Argue all day by all means but ultimately this is a subjective read of somewhat ambiguous data and the PT stands in contrast for me to both the OT and the ST.
I didn't say all beings could become a Jedi or a Sith, in fact I said exactly the contrary. I said the new movies return us to the idea that Jedi training is just one way amongst a whole galaxy of accessing and utilising the force, not the defining standard by which one does so.
The ST and the stand alone movies support this, as did much of the EU, with a galaxy full of force users who are neither Jedi nor Sith, nor any variant thereof. R1, TFA, TLJ and whole swathes of the novels have followed through on this theme, with the PT actually being pretty much representing the outlier in having a set criteria for being a force user.
Probably not.
There rests the issue: I am saying the nature of the force was established with a hard structure in the OT and PT. The only difference between the two trilogies is the PT's introduction of midichlorians, but that was pushed to the side in favor of the doctrine / training as the means of force adepts to understand / access / use the force. The means & message always returns to the same, basic point of origin--
Qui-Gon: "..he's to be trained, then."
Qui-Gon: "I will train him, then. I take Anakin as my Padawan learner."
Qui-Gon: "With time and training..."
As much as Jinn was supposed to be a rule-bucking maverick among the congregation, the truth was found in his repeated insistence that Anakin receive formal Jedi training (and all that comes with it), no different than OT Obi-Wan saying:
Obi-Wan: "You must learn the ways of the force..."
All the same basic point of origin for any adept to understand, access and use the force in the one way seen throughout 6 films.
Start with temptation--resisting it (obviously drawn from Christianity) was a key part of the teaching / use of the force; its hammered on the two story drivers of the series--Luke and Anakin--as being more than idea, it is also a vehicle one can submit to / use in order to access the dark side, while simultaneously being corrupted by it. That's beyond a theory, but one of the ways the Jedi (and Sith) either actively built a resistance to (Jedi) or immerse themselves in to attain power (Sith). The force--in the O/PT was a blend of action and spirituality, not a "Push button A and Z2 to initiate this effect". It was never presented in that kind of purposely anti-ecclesiastical, surface-skimming manner, and any attempt to sell it that way instantly wipes away the entire fantasy / morality play centered on Luke and Anakin's journeys which are intrinsically tied to the spiritualism/doctrines of the force and its practitioners--the point of Star Wars.
Clearly there is, otherwise the O/PT would have hinted at this in anyone not a Jedi, Sith or connected to the Skywalker family line. In fact, the only other force-related information about life forms presented is that certain species (the Hutts and Toydarians) are not susceptible to at least one of the powers of the force, but no other on-screen character had any connection--even in a raw, layperson's manner, because in the fairy tale / special being story structure, they were never meant to.
The force is not the equivalent of...adrenaline. Again, as presented in the O/PT, its not something anyone can just wake up, trip out of bed and use without 1) having a natural connection to the entire "realm" of the force (hence the reason the Jedi only found Padawans selectively instead of grabbing any Random Joe off the street) and 2) being fully immersed in the doctrines of either the Jedi or Sith.
The EU means what, now? As far as the main or target audience--the film going audience goes--their understanding of who can and and cannot use the force to its full potential only comes from the movies. As it stands, the O/PT established a clear set of rules, actions & beliefs, making any latter day additions the odd man out, or something appearing shoehorned in the face of all that came before.
In Clone Wars Yoda told Clonetroopers that they were connected to the Force like all life and could use it some degree, in this case quieting the mind in order concentrate. It seems like all lifeforms are able to tap into the Force to some degree, Force sensitive people are able to manipulate it and with proper training can become a Jedi.
Exactly, this was the insistence of two members of the Jedi Order, an order which essentially fell because of exactly the sort of arrogance which would make such statements.
They were wrong, that was the whole point.
I agree that's intended to be Christian imagery (although it needn't be, the concept of temptation is not unique to Judeo Christian belief systems, other paradigms could equally lay claim to that imagery without any real stretch of the imagination), but you keep bringing it up without any reference to the point being discussed, that of the mechanics of force usage.
OT or PT? The whole point here is in the contrast between the two and the implications that come from each. One seemingly had the force as equivalent to chi or qi, an underlying expression of life itself which could be felt and manipulated by beings according to their innate talents or lack thereof, the other essentially offering the Jedis' more binary perspective, one was either an adept or not according to a pre determined number associated with their biology.
You can't pick and choose which aspects of the franchise apply, you can't selectively choose to dismiss the new films, their background material and the EU. Either you take the current state of play or the old one, but in either case there are plenty of examples of non Jedi/Sith having access to the force, not to mention the various comments such as @Awesome Possum's quote by Yoda, in the PT no less.
No, but noone implied it was. More akin to chi, or lifeforce, and your point about selecting padawans is self defeating, it's exactly that selection process which was presented in the PT and became the point of contention by adding an elitism to force abilities which been hinted at before. No one's saying Luke wasn't a prodigy, gifted beyond others, but rather there was nothing to suggest that talent implied he was part of a select group who could use the force at all.
No, they were wrong according to TLJ's revisionist dialogue, but in the O/PT films, Jinn, Kenobi and others were following the correct way--only Anakin was the issue. One of the points of the O/PT is the subject of temptation and the parallels and contrasts between father and son--
- Luke faced the temptation of joining the dark side at Cloud City and the Death Star II and resisted.
- Anakin faced temptation in pursuing Padme and that obsession leading him to attack Mace Windu, thus catapulting him to selling his soul to the dark side
Again, you are misapplying "mechanics" in reference to the force, skipping over it being a blend of action and spirituality; one cannot work without the other as established by the O/PT. The force cannot be broken down to "do this, and you can do that"--that's similar to the error Finn made in The Force Awakens--
Finn: "Solo, we'll figure it out...we'll use the force!"
Han: "That's not how the force works!"
You're dealing with Star Wars, rooted in both a religious and fairy tale realm, where its not like turning a key in the ignition and expecting a function.
If you're referring to the PT/midichlorians, but that simply clarified what was introduced in the OT: that only certain people are born with the connection / ability to use/understand the force.Lucas effectively shut out the majority of SW characters from ever having said connection / ability to use/understand the force, rendering (as mentioned days ago)
I can, and again I ask what does the EU mean? To the target audience--the average moviegoer who will never view or read EU material--the films are the one and only source. That is how Star Wars is known to the majority of the public with any experience with the franchise. Regarding the ST, as noted earlier, its introduced contradictory (or flat out wrongheaded) elements completely off the track of what the O/PT spent 6 films establishing, hence the torrential flood of justified criticism of the handing of Luke, from his behavior to dialogue regarding the force, Jedi, etc., which makes the ST seem as out of place as 1985's Droids cartoon, or 1978's Star Wars Holiday Special. The onus is on Johnson to straighten out his conscious attempt to dismantle all that Lucas built regarding the force.
This was touched on in Rebels too. It seems as though the only ones that see a fundamental distinction between force users and non-force users are the non-force users. To the Jedi at least, there doesn't appear to be any meaningful distinction, because they can feel the connection between others for themselves.
Metaphorically speaking, I tend to think of it like if there were a room full of people who think themselves blind and that only the Jedi among them can see. But what the Jedi sees is that everyone else could all see too if only they chose to remove the blindfolds they're all wearing.
Clone Wars implied it years before.
The Jedi did fail, that was the whole premise of the PT and OT, the order had fell due to the arrogance and hubris of it's tenets and beliefs.
The Jedi had become complacent, made assumptions about their own special place in the order of the universe. We spent three films watching them fall, that was the whole point!
I don't think you actually know what I'm saying to be honest, you keep making completely irrelevant comments which selectively pick evidence to support a case which doesn't even address the point being made.
Both the old and the new canon clearly show non Jedi/Sith using the force in their day to day activities. Put bluntly, you're just wrong.
Nope, in the OT there was nothing said about only particular people being able to access the force, there wasn't even mention of only Luke and Leia being exclusively able to use it to the required level. All the was mentioned as being special about them was the threat they posed to the Emperor, a threat which had nothing to do with their force abilities.
The EU was part of the canon of SW until the Disney takeover, it depicted dozens of non Jedi/Sith force users. I's been superseded by the new canon, which also shows widespread use of the force outside of those elite circles. Frankly there really isn't a case you can make other than constantly applying your own interpretations, both official versions of the SW universe have clearly shown the opposite of what you are claiming, including (as has been pointed out), in the films.
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