After IX, the franchise goes back to the writers room. Where Disney will make plans to wring more gold out of this strangled goose. I like to think they'll take more care with it in the future, but given their POTC movies. I think we can expect more "greatest hits" Star Wars type movies.
Always missing the point by sidestepping the truth. Lucas forever hammered the point about personal responsibility and the perils of temptation of ultimate power / control (in its Christian influence from Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 4, Mark 1:12-13) in the parallels / contrasts between Luke and Anakin. That is the heart of the Star Wars film saga. Anakin's personal responsibility and temptation --the very thing that caused the fall of the Jedi / rise of the Empire was something the Jedi had no control over at any time. In The Phantom Menace's final act, Yoda's grave concern over Anakin's training was rooted in his sensing problems in Anakin as a person. This is supported by a scene earlier in the film, when then-right minded Obi-Wan challenged Jinn about Anakin being a threat: Kenobi: "The boy is dangerous...they all sense it. Why can't you?" That sense of danger were the seeds already buried deep in Anakin, so there could be no "perfect" training (rendering Luke's TLJ line as pure nonsense), as he was--by will of the force--fated to give in to temptation and aid the Sith-controlled take over of the galaxy. No, I'm just dismantling your neverending attempt to separate the way the force works through its practitioners, which is as much spiritual/religious as it is anything else. If you cannot understand or accept the spiritual/religious side as being a functioning part of how the Jedi & Sith are able to use the force in what would be called supernatural means, then you are locked into a loop of permanent (deliberate) failure to comprehend why the force works in the way it does. Utter nonsense that is in no way supported by dialogue or action from the films. What other reason would Luke and Leia be a threat to the Emperor? Its not due to: political influence or position being members of the Rebellion ..or anything else. In The Empire Strikes Back, initially, the Emperor wanted Vader to prevent Luke from becoming a Jedi. Only those with that inherent connection to the force were capable of becoming a Jedi in the O/PT. Not any random being, which was never said or implied to any degree. Similar to other child adepts who--in the PT era--became Padawans (e.g. Attack of the Clones training scene), it was all about who had the inherent connection to the force. That--and the fact Luke was Anakin's son (which hammered it was all about force connection / strength) is the only reason the Emperor focuses on Luke during the hologram scene from The Empire Strikes Back. For anyone to try to omit evidence that was clear on first viewing in 1980 means they will post anything so obviously loaded with spin jobs all to support the deservedly reprehended Johnson/TLJ revisionist crap. Once again, the target audience--the movie audience (that's who Lucas created Star Wars for) has zero knowledge of cartoons, comic books, action figure backing card descriptions, or anything else that was not released in that big, darkened room with the giant screen & rows of seats. The interpretation of the force and who uses it--as far as millions of movie goers across the world were concerned since 1977--was spelled out in 6 films released from 1977 - 2005. Lucas did not spend years not making the how and why of the force clear in the films, or saying-- "Gee, if only I had comics and cartoons to help explain the force and who uses it to the general movie audiences who will see this, even though I know 90 percent of that audience will never buy comics or watch cartoons! Aw, shucks..what to do, what to do...?" There's no debating it--the general movie audience Lucas created SW for knows the how, why and who of the force from the O/PT as intended, and any attempt to toss in EU as part of the general understanding is patently false, or deliberately misleading.
We weren't discussing morality, nor are those morality plays in any way exclusive to Christianity, they are applicable to many world religions, you are simply projecting your own belief system. There's nothing specific to Judeo Christian morality about temptation and the seduction of evil, the only specifically referenced belief system is the idea of something approximating chi, which is based primarily in various eastern systems. But that's besides the point, we were discussing the mechanics of applying the force, not the morality that goes with it. My attempts are never ending because they are valid. The Force is inherently neutral, the "sides" lie in how the individual uses them. The Sw franchise is actually very expansive on how the force works, you just are choosing to ignore that fact or simply aren't aware of anything other than the movies. Um, yes it was political influence that was the danger, as evidenced by the simple fact that was exactly how he came to be the cause of Palpatine's death. It literally happens right there on the screen! You mean the really popular award winning films you can't stand for some reason? Sorry but first order (no pun intended) bullshit. You don't get to pick and choose which elements of the franchise apply. Those books, comics, cartoons are all written to feed into the SW universe, it isn't defined solely by the films and that isn't your call to make. The EU was canon, the key word being "expanded", not "alternate" - George Lucas specifically screened and authorised the entire catalogue - the new material currently is canon, you don't get to decide otherwise. You have two choices, the old continuity or the new, both of which contain a plethora of material which directly contradict your position. It's a moot point anyway as Yoda did literally spell it out in the PT to the Clone Troopers, a point you keep failing to address.
Quite right, not sure where I was going with that. Point still stands though, its a canon source where Yoda outright states exactly the opposite of this alleged exclusivity
Said the person going on and on about chi, as if that is the lone foundation of this subject, when there's no evidence of that whatsoever. Posted like one who does not know scripture. Temptation to the two, all important character/story poles of the Star Wars film franchise as inspired from the Bible: Matthew 4:8 - "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” Vader - "Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son." Palpatine - "Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi." Undeniably influential--the attempt to corrupt the SW protagonist with unheard of power and possession. ...and again, temptation and its dark desires and consequences inspired by scripture: 1 Timothy 6:9 - "Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction." This speaks not just to the hunger for wealth, but those "foolish and harmful desires" refer to the hunger for any kind of power or lust --sinful behavior--serving as the conduit toward the destructive fruit(s) of said desire. In Star Wars speak, that means-- Yoda: "Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the force are they. / If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." Anakin: "Something's happening. I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more, and I know I shouldn't." His "I know I shouldn't" is yet again--for anyone not getting it--one of the alarms of temptation sounding in Revenge of the Sith--warning that he might know his desires are wrong, but he will forsake all of his moral training/life to gain whatever he wants. The seeds of this temptation/corruption date back to the following Attack of the Clones exchange: Padme: "You're not all-powerful " Anakin (setting himself up for failure): "Well, I should be!!" Someday, I will be...I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!! I promise you--I will even learn to stop people from dying!!" ..and one film later in Revenge of the Sith, it lays out how its own Satan in the form of Sidious--successfully set the "preventing death" trap through the conduit of harmful, desires / ultimate power. That's just a small sample from a clear-as-day pattern of evidence. George Lucas is one of the most unambiguous filmmakers in history--he was never shy about or danced around the messages he sent, and what he took inspiration from, so one can conclude that only someone with an aggressively anti-Christian agenda will try to downplay, rewrite or erase it from the key messages of the O/PT. Again you are making a case for something that cannot exist without morality and its effects on Jedi and Sith behavior (what makes either side what they are and in use of ability) in the spiritual sense. The force as presented in the films is intrinsically blended with any form of manipulation defined as supernatural power. Lucas megaphoned audiences with--once again--the issue of personal responsibility and the perils of temptation of ultimate power / control (again, in its Christian influence from Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 4, Mark 1:12-13) in the parallels / contrasts between Luke and Anakin. That is the heart of the Star Wars film saga. Bullshit. Not only is it not on screen in the visual sense, but it is nowhere in the dialogue, either. Sidious--in the ESB scene in question, or Obi-Wan's ROTJ scene--was not interested in or threatened by political power, and never--not in one sentence--referred to Luke or Leia (the issue here) as a threat due to political position / being members of the Rebellion. The threat was the Luke being a growing practitioner of the force, supported by Kenobi's "the Emperor knew, as I did--" dialogue from ROTJ. As mentioned before, anyone to trying to omit evidence that was clear on first viewing in 1980 means they will post anything busting at the seams with spin jobs all to support the Johnson/TLJ revisionist nonsense. "Award Winning" Ahh, the desperate appeal to (imagined) authority. If you're referring to the sequel trilogy, you're using "award winning" as a judgement of its story quality, then what awards would you be referring to? If you want to go there, we know at least one of the OT--Star Wars--saw Lucas nominated for the Academy Award for Best Original Screenplay and the film for Best Picture, but TFA? TLJ? Your train just plummeted into the ravine of steaming, lie-infested crap. Lucas created the Star Wars concept for film. That is absolute truth supported by innumerable historical references you seem to have never viewed. Comics, video games, action figure descriptions and cartoons are ancillary material designed to generate more profits, not tell the story (and/or explain the force) he created and released for the movie going population. Not once did he say between 1977, 1980 or 1983 that he needed the Marvel Comics series, Alan Den Foster's Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the Brian Daley Han Solo novels, or the L. Neil Smith Lando Calrissian novels to help explain any part of his film to the audience. In between trilogies, he did not say it was important to read Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy novels to understand his film world Further, when the prequels were released, did Lucas demand of the millions of movie goers who only knew Star Wars as a film series (the majority of its audience) that they must read PT spin-off novels to understand any part of his film series. If he did, I'm waiting for the exact quote where he says it, otherwise, this exercise of yours is unadulterated crap. That's correct, it was not in the movies.
While Clone Wars isn't required to watch the PT movies, it does expand on them, and I do recommend people watch the series after they've seen the movies (not before) The series was EP'ed by George and him and Filoni went over every story personally, he was at every pitch, he approved and prohibited story ideas all the time. Things he couldn't do in the movies, or thought of afterwards he included in the show.
Do you really think quoting scripture is really helping your case here? I could (if sufficiently interested) trawl dozens of world religions and find similar parallels, there's nothing special here about Judeo Christian belief systems, there themes are common to many belief systems. Remind me again how Palpatine died? How am I desperate? The films were wildly successful and you are representing a minority viewpoint here, one you bizarrely keep supporting by referenced to the bible Nope. All of that material was mandated personally by him based on his vision of the SW universe. A great deal was precluded for not fitting. SW doesn't have, has never had, the canon/non canon divide between it's various branches. Either it's official and thus hangs together or it doesn't get published. There are dozens of officially accepted characters in that material whose very existence render your position both absurd and literally contrary to the published material. Precisely, he didn't clear things that didn't fit with his vision of the SW universe, if they were published, they hold up, period.
Eh, it really wasn't. He didn't care much for the EU. His role in approving things has been greatly exaggerated. He just let it be because it didn't effect him, he could contradict it any time he wanted. There were some things he forbid authors to touch, but that's about it.
In all this, no one brings up the two Guardians of the Whills from Rogue One? One that has faith and is blind, while the other has lost his faith but has a big gun. Chirrut believes in the Force and is seen trying to use it a few times. His combat skills, while they could be natural, seem very similar to Jedi skills at anticipation and deflection. Plus his walk while chanting has all the Imperials miss him while he's "One with the Force". After that ,his friend Baze decide to embrace his faith in the Force as well, and does fairly well out in the open against the best of the best troopers the Empire has (supposedly anyway). They might not have the skills or powers of a Jedi, but the Force still seems to work for them on some level.
Unlike you, I know where and how Lucas took inspiration from in those scenes/dialogue, hence the clear as day Bible and parallels / inspiration in the SW script references. Its been accepted since the OT years, and no amount of dodging, attempts to shove Christianity out of SW is going to change that. We know it was not any military personnel, hence his never referencing or fearing the likes of Mon Mothma, General Rieekan, Admiral Ackbar or any politician. Next... Palpatine died only because of Luke; Luke would never have been pursued if not for his force ability/lineage, and as once he worked on Vader's emotions, he was the catalyst for Vader to seek/find redemption. Remove Luke from existence and Vader would have been content to stand at Palpatine's side for the remainder of his life. So Luke lived up to Palpatine's prediction, "he could destroy us" by being the one and only reason Vader killed Palpatine--and was mortally wounded. You are confused again. The desperation charge started with your: ...which--by the way--had nothing to do with any Biblical reference on my part, yet you attacked it again, shining a light on your obsession with attacking Christianity in general. To be certain, you were the one who were desperate in trying to appeal to an imagined authority with the "award winning" line, which means nothing, considering TFA & TLJ's awards are on a level meaning what--exactly? Once again, I'm calling you out on this, as you have provided no evidence that ancillary material was ever required (by Lucas) to understand any part of a series created for film. So, to go over this again-- Not once did Lucas say between 1977, 1980 or 1983 that he needed the Marvel Comics series, Alan Den Foster's Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the Brian Daley Han Solo novels, or the L. Neil Smith Lando Calrissian novels to help explain any part of his film to the audience. In between trilogies, he did not say it was important to read Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy novels to understand his film world. Further, when the prequels were released, did Lucas demand of the millions of movie goers who only knew Star Wars as a film series (the majority of its audience) that they must read PT spin-off novels to understand any part of his film series. If he did, I'm waiting for the exact quote where he says it, otherwise, your entire argument was and remains crap. Time to produce the evidence, guy. No more tap-shuffle-tap or BS-ing. That's a recommendation--a choice. That is far different than another making any suggestion that Lucas needed the EU for the target average movie audience to understand the force or anything else about SW, as its undeniable that the majority--that average movie-going audience did not, and never will watch SW cartoons or read SW novels and comics. True. Lucas spent more time rejecting all of those novels, comics and TV series produced during and after the OT release years (including the Zahn era) than making any statements of the acceptance pushed by others.
Exactly political influence, he disrupted the power structure at the top of the Empire. How clear do you need it? Vader chose loyalty to his son over that to his Emperor, that is the simplest and most ancient form of politics known to humanity How is that not exactly what I said? Oh my word you're beyond belief. You're quoting scripture as a means to knowledge of the fictional magic in a film, then criticising me for appealing to imagined authority when I happen to concur with a professional opinion of it's sequels? What's this obsession with Christianity when we were discussing the egalitarianism or elitism inherent in Force usage? Do you have any idea of the unintentional irony here? Nor have I made such a claim. I said they are officially part and parcel of the SW universe and anything in them is canon (much as I hate that word), not that they are required reading. The content and themes within them expand on those seen in the films and (were) every bit as valid. You don't get to decide otherwise because it doesn't suit you. The EU stood and the ST films stand. Period. Is there really a reason you are so determined to push a case against a passing personal and subjective observation I made weeks ago about the OT seemingly presenting a more egalitarian view of the force, in my opinion. Have you really nothing better to do?
That has nothing to do with political structure whatsoever. Palaptine's only concern was the threat of a man tied to and empowered by an enemy religious order (and his sister, if he ever discovered she existed). There's no spinning that to support your lost-in-the-woods argument. The difference here is that I'm quoting scripture only to accurately illustrate how Lucas used it as an influence in establishing / defining the O/PT's presentation of all things force related. That's all a matter of history. On the other hand, you jumped off the rails by citing "award winning" as the desperate, last-ditch defense of the ST, as if saying "award winning" (which has nothing to do with this force discussion) protects the films from their well-deserved critical drubbing thanks to its BS regarding the force and mischaracterization of Luke. You were off on that tangent, and jumped to attack any reference to the origins of the force, which is necessary in actually understanding how it works as seen in the O/PT. You do not even read what you type. You were the one who posted: ...and... ...and... That's all you, guy. In referencing anything other than the movies, you're attempting to pile up your argument from things Lucas himself never said was required to define or understand the force and its users, so you ere essentially pulling this out of...shall we say places not seen...trying to legitimize them as required by sticking the "canon" label to it in order to support the disasters and contradictions of the sequel films. The EU--pre-Disney or present day--has been and always will be irrelevant to how the films defined the force/users/theology for its target audience, and is purely a take-it-or-leave it consideration, like DC's old Silver Age "imaginary stories". Apparently, you do not, since you have spent weeks arguing with me and other members about a film series. Walk out the front door of your home or place of employment and get some fresh air--or is it more important that you keep arguing?
So, politics. The politics which directly resulted in his death and would have played out just the same without any form of mysticism. You're just quoting scripture, not making a meaningful link to the actual discussion. ANY world religion could pretty much be inserted where you use Christianity, it has nothing to do with the availability of lack thereof of the extremely chi like concept of "force". Even if that was GL's inspiration (which I've repeatedly agreed it very likely partially was), it doesn't make Christianity a viable tool to define or understand the events onscreen which clearly have a wide variety of influences and also stand alone in terms of the mechanics involved. In any case there are much more literal official examples within the franchise that simply cannot sit side by side with your position, allegory not required. Literally you are just plain wrong and you don't seem to get that numerous official publications openly showing the exact opposite of your position renders your case null no matter how well you paint the parallels or your own belief system. There is more to the franchise than the OT/PT, you just seem to believe it's your call to dismiss it. It isn't. There are a whole swathe of officially sanctioned characters that use the force sans Jedi/Sith training. None of which is at all "must read the EU to understand the films". Pretty sure you'd get the difference if you applied yourself. No, not others, Set Harth dropped it ages ago, being a much more astute and sensible person. It's just you, attacking my perspective and seemingly believing that quoting the bible is a really helpful way to illustrate your point. As usual you are being ignored by most of the forum and with good reason. You do realise this stuff is very much the reason you struggle so much to fit in here?
Or even just ask the man himself, here's George Lucas's thoughts on the role of mythology and religion in the creation of the force, notably the bits where he talks about things like "amalgamations of world religions" and "mythologies from all parts of the world", Very different from @TREK_GOD_1 's characterisation of Lucas's intent in SW being a Christianity allegory or parallel, much less an endorsement of it. Here's another where he describes the major theme as being about achieving balance between opposing poles and the key route to spiritual enlightenment being about eschewing control of others, rather unlike Christianity but surprisingly similar to Taoism.
I think @Tuskin38 has a good idea. If you both @Spot261 and @TREK_GOD_1 wish to pursue your imbroglio, then please continue it in private messages and NOT in this forum.
I appreciate reading @TREK_GOD_1 perspective whether I agree or not. Frankly I read most people. As for the core saga maybe after '9' it should end.