Where did the show go wrong?

[Riker'sMailbox]

I was here in the 90:s and the discussions were basically the same as they are today. In fact, I think that the forum is much friendlier and civilized now than it was back then.
And so am I too!

Otherwise, it was the same discussions about the characters (good or bad) , the writers, the different seasons, the flaws, the Borg baby, the shuttles and torpedoes and so on.

That is interesting. I would never have thought that. But, I am still relatively new to the trek universe.

 

[cosmic mouse]

Voyager had a super interesting premise but threw most of its potential out the window by the second episode and became a TNG clone.

A TNG clone? I wonder why I love VOY and think TNG is a snooze-fest...
Nope. I guess they are identical. My mistake.

 

[Infern0]

A TNG clone? I wonder why I love VOY and think TNG is a snooze-fest...
Nope. I guess they are identical. My mistake.

Well, Voyager is more like a dumbed down TNG clone without the serious philosophical depth of TNG.

Don't get me wrong, I liked voyager I've seen every episode multiple times and own a few of the DVD's, it's easy watching, but most people who like Voyager but NOT tng it's usually because TNG goes over their heads.

No offence

 

[cosmic mouse]

No offence

I can assure you this is not the case.
Presentation counts for as much as content (perhaps more) in my opinion, especially when discussing something as menial as a TV series. If the presenter fails to engage, then it doesn't matter a whit what his message is.

 

[unimatrix7]

Well, Voyager is more like a dumbed down TNG clone without the serious philosophical depth of TNG.

Don't get me wrong, I liked voyager I've seen every episode multiple times and own a few of the DVD's, it's easy watching, but most people who like Voyager but NOT tng it's usually because TNG goes over their heads.

No offence

I mostly agree with you. Voyager was very popular in Australia with casual viewers (“I only liked Star Trek when they had the lady captain”) and I find it a good gateway drug to getting friends etc into Star Trek. I like it too despite being frustrated and annoyed at its many visible flaws. Genuine moments of greatness just make me sad for what could’ve been. I also frequently find myself defending the show, for some reason.

Where we diverge is with the idea that TNG was particularly deep or complex. I find that a bit funny.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The funny thing is that it seems like Voyager is more popular than DS9 in places like Netflix and on TV. The Voyager finale is the most rewatched episode on Netflix.

And BBC airs Voyager frequently but still hasn't added DS9 yet after all this time. It also airs TOS and TNG.

The finale to Voyager is the most rewatched Trek episode on Netflix? I just don't get it.

It seems like DS9 is the more respected Trek, but Voyager is the more popular Trek.

 

[USS Firefly]

The funny thing is that it seems like Voyager is more popular than DS9 in places like Netflix and on TV. The Voyager finale is the most rewatched episode on Netflix.

And BBC airs Voyager frequently but still hasn't added DS9 yet after all this time. It also airs TOS and TNG.

The finale to Voyager is the most rewatched Trek episode on Netflix? I just don't get it.

It seems like DS9 is the more respected Trek, but Voyager is the more popular Trek.

Maybe Voyager is easier to follow.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Maybe Voyager is easier to follow.

Yeah, Voyager's basic storyline is more simple and easier to follow. It's almost like Gilligan's Island but on a spaceship.

I also think the premise, a lost ship trying to get back home probably resonates with a lot first time fans. I think the characters on DS9 are way more interesting, but the crew from Voyager seem more down to earth and relatable.

It's still hard to understand why BBC hasn't picked up DS9 yet. It has the other ones. It's like it's not making any real effort to get it.

It's really strange when you have a show everyone praises as one of the best Treks, and yet it is the one that is the most looked over.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It can't be the serialization?

So many shows do that now.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It can't be the serialization?

So many shows do that now.

Yeah, that's what I don't get. Just about every popular show on Netflix is serialized. A lot of shows on TV are serialized.

Discovery, which is supposed to be the most streamed show in the world, and it's serialized.

I've heard that explanation before but now I have hard time believing it when I see these other popular shows.

For Voyager, even if it was more episodic, I'll give it credit for having some interesting story ideas during its run.

 

[Orange Crusher]

Brannon Braga (boy genius) should have been running the show from the start. He was hip! He knew what the kids wanted to see.

What they didn't want to see was Kate Mulgrew starring as Katharine Hepburn in The Katharine Hepburn Story - In Space!

Yo! Crack is whack!

What they did want to see was - Jeri Ryan.

 

[Orange Crusher]

And in any show, there are going to be characters set up to have growth and change while others aren't, and act as anchors for the ones that do.

In Voyager, the characters set up to have growth are Tom Paris, B'elanna, Kes, the Doctor, and Seven.
.

Yes! These are the five characters that should have always been the focus. These are the most relatable, because they are still maturing. Everyone else should have been in a supporting role.

Unfortunately, with the exception of the Doctor and later 7of9, they weren't the focus they should have been.

Building a show around, a cocky, mature captain was so played out by this time.

 

[Orange Crusher]

... most of the species seemed to be an equvilent of federation technology, so it goes to say.. why would Alien X bother with the ship in the first place?, maybe you have a complete asshole species that harrasses it just because, but there has to be a reason..

A complete asshole species? Wait, what?! That's not keeping with Gene's vision! How dare you!

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I cannot say when the show went wrong for the simple reason that I don't think that Voyager went really wrong in any way. Of course,weaknesses there have been during these 7 years and instead of correcting quickly, producers allowed them to settle for different reasons but in the end, it was nice to watch these familiar faces from different species live varied experiences.

As fas as I'm concerned, Voyager was a real experience - like X-Files was, long before even if I admit to have missed the last seasons - and above all, the only Sci-Fi TV program I ever watched from the premiere to the finale (even the episodes which I have zapped during the 1st airing, were seen).
Today I follow The Orville and as surprising as it may seem, Supergirl, that I lately discovered accidentally during a Saturday evening where I had nothing to do except stay in my home to nibble m&s while watching TV (funny fact, according to circumstance, I had plunged in Voyager in beginning with The Caretaker for the same reason and in doing the same thing, except that it was during a bank holiday, which fell in the middle of the week. ). But anyway, my biggest regret - and that was in watching the last crossover, Elseworlds with the Monitor's character I really took conscience of it - was the fact that never in 7 seasons of Voyager, the characters have really taken the measure of what they were doing by changing the course of Time with a big T, in creating imbalances in Universe. And moreover,
no one came to ask them for accounts or so little that Janeway and Cie got away with a pirouette and no consequence at the end.

 

[gakelly]

Building a show around, a cocky, mature captain was so played out by this time.

When the show was on for its initial run, I found that I disliked the lost in space type premise, but I found I disliked Kate Mulgrew even more. Her voice, her arrogance, and the way all her crew seem to worship her even though they have absolutely no reason to do so were all very abrasive.

 

[at Quark's]

If the show did go wrong somewhere (which I think is doubtful), I'd say it was allowing to let their creativity dry up. The original concept of the show was quite, well, original, but most of the premises were dropped rather quickly (except of course for the "being lost" part). In the earlier seasons they tried to create original alien races and build new story arcs around them (admittedly, not all of them were a success), whereas in the later seasons they more often seemed to retreat into risk-free territory and center on a "EMH/Seven/Borg problem of the week" storyline. I know, this is a terrible generalisation and yes there are enough exceptions, but still.

However, I doubt this is really any different from TNG and DS9. We had seen most truly new ideas in these shows by season 4 or 5, too, with S6 still running fine and S7 declining. (DS9 just was in a lot of luck that their grand 'dominion war arc' still had some momentum by S7). Perhaps 7 years of storytelling is simply a little too much.

 

[fireproof78]

The finale to Voyager is the most rewatched Trek episode on Netflix? I just don't get it.

Because there is no real build-up to the finale it feels like. So, you can watch it without any real concern of missing too terribly much. The finale is a pretty big spectacle in its own right, so you get the larger action set piece with some time travel shenanigans and the Borg. It;s kind of like Star Trek comfort food.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Arguing here has forced me to rewatch Caretaker, Endgame and Equinox more times than I care to admit.

 

[STEPhon IT]

If the Maquis were created for Voyager, then they should have been an entirely different organization with a different backstory.

The Maquis worked in DS9(and late TNG) because the conflict of which the Maquis were apart was happening there.

Not in the DQ, 70,000 light years away.

The average Maquis, when thrust into the situation of Voyager, is going to want to get home, a journey by the way that will take decades, so they are utterly removed from the conflict in the Federation-Cardassian border region.

They will still care about their compatriots, and Voyager had B'lanna getting extremely angry and upset when the Dominion destroyed the Maquis.

Speaking of that-after that happened, what honestly could the Maquis on Voyager do?

How interesting it could've been if Seska was a sympathetic character who happened to be Cardassian, and later revealed to be Cardassian and she only wanted to be with the man she truly loved and be with her friends she fought side by side and risked her life for... who hated Cardassians? This was an element I thought could've been a compelling storytelling angle because the crew, both sides, have their own discomfort about the Cardassians and to have this person on board and pretty much duped everyone would put her on trial. She would be a character truly alone in this series. Elements such as that should've been explored.

 

[Guy Gardener]

How interesting it could've been if Seska was a sympathetic character who happened to be Cardassian, and later revealed to be Cardassian and she only wanted to be with the man she truly loved and be with her friends she fought side by side and risked her life for... who hated Cardassians? This was an element I thought could've been a compelling storytelling angle because the crew, both sides, have their own discomfort about the Cardassians and to have this person on board and pretty much duped everyone would put her on trial. She would be a character truly alone in this series. Elements such as that should've been explored.

The Federation and Cardassia were allies.

There was no reason for Seska to have acted like she did.

Legally Janeway had to welcome Seska with open arms, and protect her from any of the Maquis who might have felt betrayed.

Her Cardassian rank, if it was high, might have forced out lieutenant junior grade B'ELanna Torres from her position of Chief Engineer, or for Tuvok to give up one of his jobs. Tactical and security are two jobs.