Where did the show go wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by gakelly, May 4, 2019.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The Federation and Cardassia were allies.

    There was no reason for Seska to have acted like she did.

    Legally Janeway had to welcome Seska with open arms, and protect her from any of the Maquis who might have felt betrayed.

    Her Cardassian rank, if it was high, might have forced out lieutenant junior grade B'ELanna Torres from her position of Chief Engineer, or for Tuvok to give up one of his jobs. Tactical and security are two jobs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
  2. Prof. Axe

    Prof. Axe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    Seska didn't want to leave Voyager. She thought she was helping them. Once she was forced to leave, her goal was to take Voyager for herself. She wanted the ship. If she was smart, she would've come to the conclusion that they were never going to get home, so any rules or treaties are pointless.
    Along with Best of Both Worlds, Scorpion and the Gift, Dark Frontier, and Q-Who, which were the 2nd through 8th episodes on the aforementioned list.

    It seems like the more obvious explanation is that people like the Borg action episodes. Unless you think people go through the thought process of "I'm going to watch Endgame today, or Best of Both Worlds, because it's comfort food, and I don't have to know what's going on."

    Endgame is no more a "standalone" story than All Good Things...
     
  3. Dry Bones 37

    Dry Bones 37 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    To me its yes and no. I think that I can follow VOY's Endgame better stand-alone than All Good Things.
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Seska thought that Janeway was a weak idiot child.

    She wasn't interested in taking over Voyager, but if she had seduced and corrupted Chakotay, murdering Janeway would have been step two.

    The kazon where clearing the space forward of Voyager for months, murdering and enslaving anyone too weak not to run at the sight of them.

    No one "thanked" Seska for that.
     
  5. Prof. Axe

    Prof. Axe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    Or they just sort of stayed out of Voyager's way in exchange for goods for a short time. That's basically extortion. They certainly didn't protect Voyager from anyone else.
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    What about the the Krowtonan Guard?

    They shredded Ransom.
     
  7. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    You mean Chakotay? I think there were some real feelings there. It's clear though Chakotay wouldn't betray Voyager for her, and thus things went downhill from there.
     
    Prof. Axe likes this.
  8. Prof. Axe

    Prof. Axe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    Voyager didn't fly through their territory, but the only villains they encounter during that period are the Vidiians(and twice, according to "Fury"). They seemed pretty on their own with them
     
  9. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Location:
    Sunny California
    The Federation were in deed allies but there were a dumpster load of conflict, and for Voyager there were characters who had some deep seeded contempt for the Cardassians, the war or battle the Federation dealt with before they were allies and the current--at the time--Maquis crisis, I thought having a spy who turned out was actually a defector--getting exposed and trying to deal with that on the ship would of been a nice idea than Seska being the stereotypical bad guy.
     
  10. Prof. Axe

    Prof. Axe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    There's a sign on the wall in the transporter room(brought over from Chakotay's ship), and it reads "Cardassians, NOT WELCOME"
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    You mean like Tom Paris?

    AND Tuvok?
     
    Lance likes this.
  12. Prof. Axe

    Prof. Axe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    So basically you wish Garak was on Voyager? A Cardassian defector wouldn't be much benefit to Voyager if there are no Cardassians around. And they would have to know that she was a Cardassians before the show began, otherwise she wouldn't be a defector, but a spy who was outed.
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Allies.

    There was nothing to defect from, and no power to stop her defecting or undefecting or redefecting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  14. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Location:
    The Enterprise's Restroom
    I could go either way on Seska. Either as a Bajoran or Cadassian. But on some other level, VOY was not a show for 'recurring characters', so she never really had a chance to meet her potential. Not like DS9. And less so than even TNG. The number of alledgedly important characters who were 'one and done', only to be continually mentioned but never seen again, if they were even that lucky.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The script where they discovered Seska was her first appearance on Voyager.

    Such joy erupting from the producers, allowed them to go back in time and insert Bajoran Seska into previous (as yet unfilmed) episodes retroactively, fully aware of her eventual unmasking.

    They had a plan.
     
    Lance likes this.
  16. Prof. Axe

    Prof. Axe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    Seska appeared in 4 episodes, which were also filmed before her reveal, which was in her 5th appearance(state of flux). She appeared in Parallax, Phage, Emanations, and Prime Factors. All of the episodes that aired during season 1 were filmed in the order they aired.
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Read what I wrote again.

    Scripts.

    They changed the early scripts to include Seska, which originally did not include Seska, because State of Flux excited the producers so much, that it was worth opening up completed scripts, that were ready to film, that had not been filmed yet, to introduce Seska, before she was outed in s01e11.
     
    Lance likes this.
  18. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Location:
    California
    Good idea. This sounds like the shades of grey type of characters we see regularly on TV now, which makes for much interesting TV viewing if you ask me. It seems like during the time shows like- Voyager aired, the characters were simply good or bad. No in-betweens or reasons for why a good character may do something shady for a good reason, just good or evil.

    The way it looks on the show is that at first she was over eager to get home (with the crew) and didn't care about rules or the Prime Directive, but after she left the ship she became a basic villain. By time they did the holodeck program, she was outright evil.

    It still baffles me, but I think this may be the case.
    Voyager's basic premise is probably easier to digest. Even if you're not fond of the show, you're probably going to be curious to see if they make it home or how they make it home.

    I'm surprised that DS9's finale or treatment on Netflix and TV is so underrated. Serialized sci-fi shows can't be that difficult to follow.
     
    STEPhon IT likes this.
  19. Voracious Vidiian

    Voracious Vidiian Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Of all the STAR TREK shows, DS9 and TNG had the best series finales for different reasons.

    TNG's finale can very much be a stand alone two hour episode or even movie, which works for them because TNG was designed as a stand alone episode series. (With some serialization peppered in.)

    DS9 took care of all those threads that needed to be done, so it was excellent for that series. It hit all those emotions because it was goodbye to all these people we've lived with for 7 years.

    So for me, I put them both as a tie in terms of how great they are.

    The biggest problem with VOYAGER's finale, to me, was it ripped off TOO many ideas from TNG's finale.

    Time travel... a lead suffering from a brain disorder... a lead becoming a writer in the future (Geordi and Tom)... an attack by Klingon ships (they were even the SAME ONES)...

    It's hard to count TOS' last episode as a finale, but given how shows were produced in that time, it can be argued as one. It's still a better one than ENTERPRISE.

    And that one... the biggest crime is that it isn't even about a character FROM THAT SHOW! It's about a TNG character, set during an episode that was resolved over a decade before! Had that been aired in the middle of the season, or even a couple episodes before the end, it wouldn't have gotten nearly as much hate.
     
  20. Prof. Axe

    Prof. Axe Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    Difference between Geordi and Paris is that an interest in "writing" holonovels was an actual character trait of Tom's throughout the series. It's totally what he would be doing as an old man. His holonovels are probably really terrible, but very popular

    What was Geordi writing? TNG technical manuals?

    And Tuvok going nuts is like the natural conclusion for him. He's got all these buried anger issues. He's had all sorts of brain damage, and he's mind melded 10- too many times, with too many strange species.

    Picard didn't actually go nuts. He was genuinely hopping through time. It was more a device so that his friends wouldn't believe him, to add a little conflict.
     
    Dry Bones 37 likes this.